Do You Shop at Target? Why?

Do You Shop at Target? Why?When Target opened in Canada, taking over former Zellers stores, I confessed I couldn't care less.

While at Cloverdale Mall for another matter, I did pop into the newly opened store to see what all the fuss was about. I remember a lot of empty shelves and being rather underwhelmed by the prices and selection. It really did feel like a Walmart that wasn't quite ready for primetime.

Lately I've been reading that Target Canada is bleeding money. It will likely become a case study in how you shouldn't launch in a new country. The Target Canada experience, apparently, doesn't measure up to the Target USA experience.

I have a simple question for the hive mind. Do you shop at Target in Canada? And if you do, why?


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Comments (34 - click here to join in!)

Gary

Target looks like a cleaned up Zellers. I was underwhelmed by selection and price. I don't know what their strategy was, and maybe they didn't know either.

May 22, 2014 @ 11:21 AM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

I'm no expert, but I'd think empty shelves would be a cardinal sin when launching a new store.

It all felt rushed... they needed more time before opening the doors.

May 22, 2014 @ 11:25 AM

McNulty

If it's close by, then I go. Price wise and selection wise it isn't amazing but I don't view it much differently than Wal-Mart.

Their toy section is always better.

May 22, 2014 @ 11:32 AM

Mark H

Gawker had a great article from a Canadian within Target on their site yesterday. A lot of the issues came down to the way they took over Zeller's leases and the insistence on timetables that were unsustainable to get them up and running.

Combine that with a lot of Americans thinking that Canada and the US are the same and it was a recipe for disaster.

My own personal experience has been that there was really no difference between the emptyish Target store near me and the emptyish Zellers it replaced. The only positive is that even though you can't get most of what they advertise in their flyer due to stock issues, Walmart will price match it.

May 22, 2014 @ 11:44 AM

Dawn Keibals

Target is just Zellers with lipstick.

May 22, 2014 @ 12:06 PM

Douglas

Mark H - You pretty much nailed it. Target expected that Canadian consumer goods wholesalers and manufacturers were as efficient, or at least a lot closer to their American counterparts. As they found out, that is definitely not the case. I don't doubt that whatever deadlines Target was working with/giving were reasonable - in the U.S. This is Canada, though.

Personally, I have gone into my local Target in Ajax twice. The first time, several months ago, was more out of curiosity than anything else. Yes, the former Zellers looks much, much better now (that's still not saying much as that Zellers was such a dump), but there are still way too many display gaps and empty shelves. I went again a week ago, because a manufacturer told me that their product was carried by Target. Not in Ajax, and apparently the store staff couldn't find it on their computer inventory system (for ordering) either. I guess I'll buy some more the next time I cross the border again.

As for Walmart, I generally try to avoid going there. It is very rare that they are a convenient alternative for just about anywhere else I would (rather) shop. They have plenty of empty shelf space, too. My sister-in-law works at Walmart. She's well-treated and decently paid there, but she can't believe how Walmart (at least in Canada) succeeds when she sees all the screw-ups that happen.

I think Target will eventually get it right in Canada. Whether I do any shopping there is another matter. At least, after my two trips to my local Target, I did not feel like I needed to have a shower when I got home.

May 22, 2014 @ 12:18 PM

Elaine

Nope don't shop there, and I didn't shop at Zellers either. Always felt "dirty" in the Zellers I've been in. Target underwhelmed me as well with empty shelve and marked up "Zellers" merch, although it did feel "cleaner" than Zellers. Way more costly than Walmart. So thanks but no thanks.

May 22, 2014 @ 12:44 PM

Rob

I agree with everyone's comments about the lack of selection (bare shelves) and that the prices are out of whack. When Target first opened, I went to the Entertainment section to check the prices of movies. I dont know why...but I always find that to be a decent barometer for a store (detergent and chip prices are pretty much the same wherever you go). Target was stupid-overpriced. I couldnt believe that a kids movie at Best Buy or Walmart was $15 cheaper than Target.

Having said that...I, like Douglas, went to the Ajax location and have done so a few times now. And while there is a lot left to be desired, I found that the customer service was awesome. I bought my son a GT Snowracer from Target and I totally busted the steering wheel while giving it a go. Not only did they replace it but they gave me a refund as the price changed from when I first bought it.

Second...their pharmacy staff/owner was super helpful and we even got a 'thank you card' for visiting signed by the owner a couple weeks later. Wal-Mart doesnt do that. Their customer service sucks ass. And maybe its because Wal-Mart is so rammed with people (as opposed to Target) that their reps cannot provide that level of service...but Target wins for me in that dept.

I will continue to give Target a fair shake...but its a #2 visit if #1 Wal-Mart doesnt have the item.

May 22, 2014 @ 12:44 PM

Gilmar

I think Canadian customers were hoping that Target Canada would replicate the experience of Target USA more than anything. I personally never cared about how "Canadian" they made it ; I expected a level of selection that just hasn't happened. I go to Target occasionally for Cherokee kids clothes, which they also had at Zellers.

May 22, 2014 @ 12:53 PM

TheCapn

I honestly can't understand how people thought that since Target was a US brand, they would be bringing US products and prices with them? Why on earth would Target get a free pass from duties and taxes not to mention bypassing CSA and CFIA guidelines? And a dude has lost his job over these presumptions! Mind boggling.

I've been to Target a handful of times...they have nice shopping carts, and I did find a carrot ginger salad dressing that I quite enjoyed that I haven't found anywhere else. But like other people on here, I didn't shop at Zellers, so why would I shop at Zellers 2.0?

May 22, 2014 @ 3:06 PM

this guest

zellers was hilariously sad.
haven't been in a target.
avoid wallmart if at all possible.

May 22, 2014 @ 3:10 PM

Anonymous

This is a juicy one. I'm not going to use my name here because I'm the account manager for Target with my company so I just don't want to have to worry about Target searching and finding out just in case. I am however a regular contributor here.

Target was a company that had so much potential in coming up here great brand recognition, more premium clothing and an alternative to Walmart. All the reasons why target does well in the US. Vendors were jumping for joy at the thought of having someone compete head to head with Walmart and steal their share while also taking away some of their bargaining power.

That perhaps was the big problem they thought they could just cookie cutter what they do in the US and do it here. I read the gawker story from a Canadian employee and that about sums it up.

Last year when they grand opened the three stores it was an absolute debachal. Vendors shipped in massive amounts of product into the Target DC's to ensure the store would have stock for the open. What did we find when we entered the stores that opening day? Half our crap wasn't on the shelves. It really didn't matter the category, the results were all the same.

For the vendor community the out of stocks were an absolute horror. Especially as these out of stocks continued for 7 months after. What compounded this was that none of the US brass that was brought in to launch here cared. My buyer flat out told me that none of the Americans that were there trying to guide the ship cared. Every vendor was crying about in stocks and executions of plannograms and nobody there cared. or at least nobody that had power cared. All they kept talking about was the fact their Facebook page was the most liked Retailer page in Canada and that they were opening 124 stores which had never been done before. What made things even worse was that when you had an ad spot on an item, you'd go do a store visit the day the ad broke only to find that they had very little or no product on shelf to cover the ad. can you imagine consumers going to their stores only to find that the item(s) that were on sale had no stock? this only further pissed off the consumer. Sorry let me correct that to Target, all consumers are referred to as guests. You need to remember that because Target themselves will call you out in a meeting if you don't use the term Guest. Ultimately the GUEST was finding out first hand how bad the experience was.

Get past the in stocks you hit all the other road bumps. Firstly they shouldn't have tried to open 124 stores in 7 months. The good news is their original plans called for 150 stores in 7 months so at least they scaled that back. But like anything when it comes to buildings there are delays and things don't quite work out. Despite that the American leaders said we keep on keeping on. Also keep in mind that Target in the US is nortorious for setting lofty goals and ending up falling short. This in and of itself should have been foreshadowing to everyone in Canada.

Add to this the extra headaches Target caused vendors. Magically out of nowhere they said they would price match Walmart on like items when Walmart goes on rollback. What this means is Walmart does a 30 day price reduction they call it a rollback. Well Targets audit team will go out see it on Rollback and then lower the price at Target. Which is great in theory, but then they expect vendors to keep their margin whole. All the while not communicating the price drop at shelf.

So while we are on the topic of pricing, this was another funny thing Target did. They just didn't communicate it to consumers well. They tried to be all cloak and daggers when it came to what retails would look like. So it left the people in our population with a lower intelligence to believe prices would be the same. This of course was ridiculous, because Walmarts prices here aren't the same as in the US. It's difficult to be and we all know the reasons why. If Target had of just said we will be competitive with Walmart they'd have done better.

When I say competitive with Walmart I don't mean on everything just like items and especially consumables like Tide, dish detergent, pet food and shampoo. The fact of the matter is Target is slightly higher priced in the US on clothing and general merch, because they don't pull a Walmart and have baby tee's on for $2.00. Target sources well known designers and many in the US clamor over each other to get the exclusive lines that Target realeases. Again none of this was communicated. It could have been and at least the public would have been warned. There still would have been the morons saying things like"where are the prices like in the US?".

Next people talk about assortment. Target for the most part carries nearly all the items Walmart does. I know in my category they are missing 20-30 sku's for a department with thousands of sku's. Problem is they don't have nearly the assortment US targets have. The reason being is Target took over leases on old zellers stores. These old Zellers stores had much much much smaller foot prints than Target was used to in the US, this compounded with the fact that Zellers stores are almost all different in size. Which means they have to literally have 124 different floor plans for stores. Where as Walmart now has the luxury of having cookie cutter shape stores. Again this was poorly thought out by Target, so this automatically lead to a decreased sku count on fashions and general merch that people are used to at Target.

Further to all of this was the difference between Walmart in Canada and Walmart in the US. Many Walmarts in the US are dumps, they might as well be a dingy flea market. The people you see there are even worse than the lowliest people you see in one in Canada. Target is the better looking next level up from a Walmart in the US. Better stores, clean floor policy and most importantly no McDonald's in them. Walmart in Canada while not being a great experience is still vastly superior to that in the US. When Target did arrive, they didn't seem like a gleaming alternative to Walmart, only slightly better. Also their clean store policy which means no displays in Aisle also adds to the cleanliness appearance.

Lastly came Target's ego. They brought in a bunch of Americans here who all drank the Target kool aid. They talked Target, walked Target and really all they knew Target. If you go to the US the Target head office used to be lively. Lots of young people mulling around making Target exciting. Especially because of the sheer size and the overall establishment of the brand. they didn't do that here, what they did do was act like Canadians didn't know. They touted their brand shot down vendor ideas, wasted vendors time and money all the while beating their chests. To the point where 6 months in nobody in the vendor community could take them seriously, but still they thought they were kind. Then the best and worst thing started to happen. The US team went back to the place from which they came. In droves and at this time a mass exodus of Canadian employees started. Especially at the head office. Sales weren't there, vendors were constantly calling, buyers weren't hitting their sales numbers and general feeling for Target had diminished. What this did do was force those left and everyone new to learn the business as it existed today not to where the US does. Since that time, I can honestly say Target has improved in stocks. Vandors at least aren't complaining the same way anymore. Venture into any store today and you can see the turn around happening. The problem is they have tarnished their reputation horribly. Their Canadian president should have been fired 6 months ago. So it was only matter of time before that happened. The bad news is many loblaws folk are transitioning over to Target. If anyone has had any dealing with Loblaws then you know why that might be a problem.

I could go on, but I think many of the touch points have already been hit right on the head. I need to emphasize two things. firstly Target didn't buy Zellers. They bought the leases to all the Zellers stores. Nobody was shopping at Zellers and from the vendor side of things, that's where products went to die. So to all those saying another American retailer killed a Canadian business I say shut up. HBC was bought out a long time ago by an american, so it isn't truly Canadian anymore.

Second Target won't disappear. Too much money has been invested for them to do so. If they did it would hurt their plans for further global growth. the US is saturated and much like Walmart they are having to seek out business in other markets.Any rumors they are leaving is just playing the sky is falling card and trying to sell some news.


The only good thing you can say is this. If you do go into a store now, they are pretty much empty of "GUESTS". With in stocks improving it means you can go in there and get out quickly without having to deal with some of the human scum gracing the presence of Walmarts. Oh and most of them have a starbucks in them so at least you can grab that on your way in or out. Their prices aren't higher than Walmart, in fact because they price match rollbacks all the time and sometimes forget to take the price up they are at times cheaper. Compare a same basket if you want to see. Also Target ad matches any other retailer out there on like items, so if you see it cheaper somewhere else just bring in the ad and they'll match it.

Hopefully that gives some further perspective. Phew sorry for writing so much

May 22, 2014 @ 3:11 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Anonymous

Fascinating. Really. That's great insight.

May 22, 2014 @ 3:52 PM

Sammi

Out of stocks is not the problem. As Dawn said...It is Zellers with lipstick. There is nothing new. Nothing to make me want to go there. Not much different than the Zellers they replaced except it is cleaner and there is a Starbucks.

Nothing exciting in this store even if the shelves were full.

May 22, 2014 @ 4:03 PM

Andrew

@ Anonymous

Excellent write up. About sums up what the Gawker article had the other day but from the vendor's point of view.

@ Toronto Mike - you should email Gawker - tell them to link to your comments section and watch the hits roller steam roll ;)

Cheers,
Andrew

May 22, 2014 @ 5:01 PM

4x4 Time

Having both Target and Loblaw's as customers, I can attest to @Anonymous comments that the migration of people from Loblaws to Target will likely set back any progress Target has made lately. For a company with fun TV commercials Loblaws is likely the worst managed account we have.

May 22, 2014 @ 5:06 PM

Mike from Lowville

Nope.....I will NOT go in one. The one by me is dead! That make more room for parking at the Beer Store or going to Sushi Asano. Say what you will about Zeller's but, they carried more Canadian stuff than most.......bring back Zeller's.

May 22, 2014 @ 6:01 PM

GUNTer

I do not shop at Target or at Walmart.
I used to go into Zellers occasionally because it was the only biggish store near my dad and he liked it. We also used to eat lunch at 'The Skillet' restaurant. HAHHA. GOod times Dad. RIP.

May 22, 2014 @ 6:30 PM

Boomer

@Anonymous - Interesting read. Thanks for posting it.

I have been to Target in Ajax, Whitby and Kingston. I guess the best word to describe the experience is "meh".

May 22, 2014 @ 7:19 PM

Stephanie

@Anonymous.. Amazing perspective and great read. Thank you.

May 22, 2014 @ 7:36 PM

Blind Dave

Gosh, it seems like I am in the minority. I was very disappointed when our Zellers closed. Clean store, great selection, and I have always liked their mens shirts. No Target in its place. That section of the mall is but an empty space.

Great read by @Anon. That was a fascinating insight, thank you.

May 22, 2014 @ 10:22 PM

RS

What's going on at Loblaws?

May 22, 2014 @ 11:09 PM

Anonymous

Some further points to elaborate on and perhaps it will be in better English with proper grammar and all.

When Target bought all the leases for nearly 300 stores they didn't plan on keeping all of them. For the 124 stores they opened up last year then spent anywhere from 10-15 million a store on to renovate. When I say rennovate they might as well have blown up the old stores and started new. They had to take each zeller back to the studs and start all over again. They hadn't anticipated this and in some cases it would have been near on impossible to know.

They sold nearly 50 locations to Walmart. I know it sounds weird but they made a good penny on the deal there. Walmart decided we don't need to renovate right away. So they just took down the Zellers signs and put up Walmart ones. Similar to what they did when they first bought Woolco all those years ago. The intent is a slow renovation to new stores or super stores in the coming years.

What you will see now from Target is new stores being built from the ground up. Their very first store from the ground up opened recently in Toronto at the stockyards. It's a nice store and really what a Target should look like. I think the most impressive will be the expansive store they have planned in down town Toronto for 2016.

The spaces that used to have Zellers that have nothing in them, doesn't mean they will remain that way. Some are slated to open in the next couple of years while others may never open again. This is really the result of how they've had to cut back on expansion plans.

For those that still have sympathy for Zellers there are many horror stories in the vendor world. The last 3 years they were here before they had sold leases to Target were scary. Many times they couldn't pay their bills for months and months at a time. There were vendors that had to cut Zellers off altogether because they couldn't extend anymore credit to them. They had infestation problems abound in the store. I have a friend who works for coke and when they did there direct to store shipping they used to throw out cases and cases and cases of expired pop. That's how little traffic Zellers had. Their stock rooms were a mess, and their inventory system was abysmal, but enough about Zellers. I understand the Canadian icon and what it meant at one point in time, but at the end it was in it's death throws.

One thing to point out or ponder is whoever thought that Zellers bought more Canadian than Target. Target has gone out of it's way to partner with roots, they had a contest for a Quebec designer for clothing lines. They have sought out unique Canadian vendors for boutique items. Zellers may have had more Canadian items on the shelves, but only because those items had been there for 30 years and still hadn't sold.

Something most of the public doesn't know and what lead to so much stress is that Target Canada runs it's operating system on SAP. Whereas in the US they have their own proprietary software. Anyone who has worked at a company that has gone through an SAP implementation knows it's full of issues and that bugs create havoc for almost a year. Can you imagine having a US team saying this is how we do things and then not knowing how to actually do it here because the systems were completely different.

I had to create over 200 items on an excel spreadsheet all the UPC info, dimensions, cost, cot retail, weight everything a regular retailer needs. Unfortunately the excel spreadsheets were designed in a vaccum, and no one checked to see if they would link up into SAP. After spending hours upon hours creating every item it was devastating to find that after they opened nothing was designed right. UPC's for the scannable item were mismatched, dimensions were wrong so it caused shipping problem. Then again hours upon hours fixing the issues so that they could even place more orders.

Second to this system implementation was the problem of having French as a second language and needing to have everything created in multi-language format. The US doesn't have to deal with that, and that took everyone by surprise from the US. There was one meeting in where I had to do everything in my power to not let my jaw drop. This of course created more problems in their system.

Target's investment here was nothing short of massive. Outside of the stores they had to rebuild inside, they built three state of the art distribution centres. For anyone that has been in one they are quite the sight. They have the capacity to handle 300 stores and then some. I believe they were built so that they could roll out their P-Fresh concept. This is a store type they have in the US that is essentially a Walmart superstore but slightly smaller. Meaning they would have a full grocery store inside to help drive grocery essential traffic. So in turn their warehouses would need to be able to handle fresh, frozen and refrigerated product.

Targets main problem here is one they suffer from in the US. They are great at selling fashion and many times consider themselves a fashion retailer first and a general merch second. They win tonnes of awards for their marketing. The problem is people don't buy clothes weekly, bi-weekly or in most cases even monthly. So when you have that issue in the US and you come here and have no stock you are DOA.

One more big problem is that they didn't warehouse their grocery items they signed a deal with Sobeys to distribute and warehouse their grocery items. This was the one thing Sobeys at least had humility in by realizing they didn't have the capacity to handle that as well in the first year. Problem that arose here is that Sobeys short shipped them, weren't on time with delivery's and a plethora of other problems that forced Target to be even worse on that precious grocery traffic. I know this deal wasn't meant to last forever and their three DC's were built to handle full grocery. So once they get that under control it will be better.

Lastly is ordering efficiency. I remember calls from my warehouse with someone screaming had I seen the latest PO. Target was sending out trucks and submitting orders with only one case on it. This of course was incredibly inefficient for Target to spend that much sending a truck out, but also results in something called case pick. When a retailer orders lots of small amounts of things it increases case pick. Meaning someone has to manually load the pallet and make sure it stacks well. When they order a lot of one item it means a full pallet can be made with one item. This can be done by a palletizing machine. It's easy to put together and easy to ship. Target had and continues to have massive case pick, yet another issue of low traffic and improperly trained personnel and no care from the top brass.

I think that covers nearly everything.

May 22, 2014 @ 11:10 PM

Steve

SAP?!? That's their problem! They should be using SAS!!

May 23, 2014 @ 12:01 AM

Gary

Putting all the logistical and planning nightmares aside, the store has nothing unique as many hoped it would. Wal-Mart did offer something different when they came to Canada and consumers responded. Target has nothing. Just a big space that still looks like Zellers with nothing different to offer.

May 23, 2014 @ 4:26 AM

Wayner

I have shopped numerous times at Target US and perhaps twice at Target CAN. As per the above “meh”.

I prefer shopping at Target US as part of the overall cross-border shopping experience. Although, set-up quite nicely, my local Target does not provide the same experience. Not to mention the US version has a larger selection of items and sizes not found locally.

Canadians fell in love with the “Tarjaaaay” concept…a “nick name” coined by Rosie O’Donnell and other US celebrities back in the day. Target CAN is not the “Tarjaaaay” of legend. And may never be.

As an analogy once US version of “The Office” stopped trying to be the UK version it became an enjoyable show. Target CAN needs time to come into its own.

…and really, Zellers sucked!

May 23, 2014 @ 12:10 PM

CQ

Never shop at Target. Won't shop at Target.
I always liked Zellers! They had good value and selection every time I whenever went there (multiple locations - clothes, DVDs, etc.)
While I can appreciate Wal-mart Canada, I don't get the fuss. It's been a decade since they carried any variety of cheap DVDs and I never liked their clothing lines very much.

May 23, 2014 @ 1:36 PM

Douglas

@Anonymous. Well done, and well-written. Zellers hadn't been Canadian for a long time. I also remember people protesting with the arrival of Walmart - they didn't want a big American chain taking over. They thought that Woolco was Canadian!?

There were a few occasions years back when I went into - and actually bought - something at the Ajax Zellers. In my experience, Zellers' inventory management was horrible. There was a benefit to that, though. How many of you have or had young children who, by mid-January, had managed to lose all half-dozen sets of mittens/gloves that you'd bought for them for winter? By mid-late January, most retailers are done with winter and have their spring products popping up on the shelves. Not Zellers, from my experience. Even better, the mittens/gloves were now on sale.

I might have to pop into the Pickering Town Centre Target someday. Why? That was one of the locations that had to be torn down and rebuilt. Really, Target should have been able to learn something from Walmart moving to Canada and dealing with the every-store-is-different Woolco locations. I remember reading an article about how challenging the two-floor Square One location was for Walmart. I believe that was/is the only two-floor store they have.

May 23, 2014 @ 1:52 PM


this guest

@ Douglas
the old Woolco store at Dufferin Mall with its
'moveator' (I used to love the warning signs)
is a two story Wallmart now.

May 23, 2014 @ 3:46 PM

Guess it's a GTA thing

I guess a lot of the comments here are for people in the GTA.

Here in Hamilton I've experienced next to none of these issues and I've been in 4-5 of the Target stores at various times.

We have found some fantastic deals on clothes, housewares and other stuff like that. We do a lot of shopping at Walmart for their price matching, which Target should really look into if they want to compete with grocery stores (but based on the big essay above, that may not be the case).

We go there 1-2 times a month. We've never had issues with finding things in the flyer being sold out, or lots of empty shelves. Shelves are well stocked, stores are clean, bright, friendly staff, easy to find what you're looking for. Their in-house branded stuff is affordable and we appreicate that. We also love their sour cream & onion chips :)

When we head down to hte USA (every 4-6 months) we always hit up the Target beside the Walden Galleria. Sure, they have a way larger selection, but the store feels tired (dirty, worn out) and could really use a facelift.

In conclusion: Stock issues seem to be a GTA thing. Here in the GHA we don't have those problems.

May 24, 2014 @ 8:35 PM

Anonymous

I've been to the Cloverdale Target and the Stockyards Target. Both places I thought the shelves felt empty and prices were not what I was hoping for. I work with an American. Whenever I see her wearing something I like and ask where she got it, she always tells me Target, but in the States. I haven't seen anything really nice here. She has said that the Targets here can't compare to the ones in the US.

May 25, 2014 @ 1:24 AM

Luigi

I have to agree with many of the other posters in saying that the shopping experience at Zellers was terrible. The worst one I visited was at Vic Park and Danforth-it was dark, dingy and completely disorganized. With Target, it depends on which store you visit. I find the one at Pickering Town Centre well stocked and well run, while the one in Whitby is underwhelming, but the Starbucks inside is a nice touch.
My wife doesn't like going to Walmart but I find it very convenient, especially when I have to pick up stuff on the way home from a late shift at work. As far as Woolco goes, I was in elementary school when they closed and all I remember was the Christmas section and the toy sections were great but the rest of the store was a dump. I remember Kresgee's and Woolworth in Rexdale being like that as well.

May 25, 2014 @ 9:20 PM

Brian in Burlington

I really don't get the huge hate people have on for Target. Bottom line is if you don't like it, don't shop there. They definitely had a lot of supply problems in the beginning and probably over-promised and under delivered, but I think we need retail competition for the two big chains to keep each other honest. I don't go there very much, but I do find their household items and such are usually of better quality than Walmart. Have they done damage to their Brand? Yes. Is it permanent? Probably not, but time will tell. They might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I'm glad I have the choice, and I think they will get better (with such a large investment, their probably hoping so too).

May 28, 2014 @ 1:02 PM

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