Scientology, Autism and the Death of Jett Travolta

medicalThe 16-year old son of actors John Travolta and Kelly Preston, Jett Travolta, died today in the Bahamas. According to sources, Jett suffered a seizure at his family's vacation home at the Old Bahama Bay Hotel on Grand Bahama Island.

A few years ago, Hollywood, Interrupted published a plea from Hollywood for the Travoltas to open their hearts regarding Jett. That page doesn't seem to load properly anymore, so I'm re-posting the plea below.

A PLEA FROM HOLLYWOOD: JOHN TRAVOLTA - OPEN YOUR HEART! - April 10, 2006

On Friday, April 7th, Hollywood, Interrupted was treated to the Los Angeles premiere of "Normal People Scare Me" - a feature-length documentary about autism, co-directed by the high functioning autistic teenager Taylor Cross and his mother, Keri Bowers. The event was sponsored by an organization called Cure Autism Now (CAN) and the new magazine, The Autism Perspective (TAP).

This enlightening film was produced by b-movie actor/director/producer and former special education teacher, Joey Travolta. Joey's brother and sister-in-law, "Battlefield Earth" co-stars John Travolta and his wife Kelly Preston, were not present. Too bad...

...Had John and Kelly been at the screening, they might have a better understanding of the disorder reportedly affecting their 14 year-old son, Jett. Sadly, the Scientology couple cannot even publicly admit that their son is afflicted with a neurological disorder, lest - according to the incontrovertible doctrine of Scientology founder L Ron Hubbard - he be labeled a "degraded being" that brought his affliction onto himself. Instead, the Travoltas have long blamed their son's disability on Kawasaki Syndrome-related "environmental toxins," specifically carpet cleaning chemicals.

Rumors about Jett Travolta's disability have been floating around for years, but when no less than five sources (including a media rep from the Autism Society of America (ASA), an executive from Cure Autism Now, a major Hollywood producer and parent of an autistic child, and a Hollywood actor-parent) reported that Jett Travolta was afflicted did we decide to deliver this story. Scientology will not even recognize the disability, let alone the myriad therapies for treating it.

The CAN and ASA officials that spoke with Hollywood, Interrupted credited Sylvester Stallone and former pro football greats Doug Flutie and Dan Marino as celebrity parents of children with autism that have helped raise awareness of the malady. These celebs reportedly share their frustration with what they perceive as Travolta's "denial" stemming from Scientology's rabid hatred of psychiatry and judgment of those with psychological problems as lesser humans responsible for their own maladies.

The Hollywood actor interviewed describes having autism as "like being trapped within yourself, and having difficulty letting normal people know who you really are." Now, imagine being trapped inside a mind-control cult that prohibits you from availing your child to the treatment available. No wonder Scientology has long been plagued by suicides, and wrongful deaths.

The movie producer that spoke with Hollywood, Interrupted reports: "Kelly Preston, in her heart, wants to do the right thing for her son." "I bet it rips her heart out," says the actor. "But," says the producer," John Travolta has so far, done nothing to help raise awareness about autism."

Tragically, Scientology does nasty things to the heart. "And to the other families who are being torn apart by this disorder," sighs the actor. "Let me know if I can help you appeal to his heart." Hollywood, Interrupted believes that you may have done just that.

My heart goes out to anyone who loses a child, especially at such a very young age, but I can't help but wonder if Scientology is to blame. The entire concept of a "degraded being" is difficult for me to stomach.

Details are still emerging about Jett's death, but it sounds as if his affliction was acknowledged by everyone who knew him, except his parents. It would be difficult to believe devout followers of Scientology would do all they could do for someone suffering from a neurological disorder.

It's a shame this open plea fell on deaf ears years ago.


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Comments (252)

Judy

Wacky religious fanatics are so sad.

January 2, 2009 / 18:50

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

I knew Travolta was into Scientology but when I posted on this subject I decided to leave that little fact alone. That said, I assumed the death has no connection to the cult. But yes, I see now maybe it did. I hope this raises awareness not only about Autism but about the ugly truth about Scientology

January 2, 2009 / 19:06

Rauncie

I find this so sad. My 4 year old grandson is autistic and I remember when I first noticed things and brought them to his fathers attention. He was in denial at first as were other family members. Now he is getting the help he needs and is living a much better life. I have always loved John Travolta and I feel so badly for him and his family.

January 2, 2009 / 19:08

Toronto Mike

A little research reveals about one in four autistic individuals begin to have seizures during puberty.

My mom works with autistic children. I'm going to ask her about the link between autism and seizures.

I just hope there wasn't something the Travolta's could have done but didn't because of some damn L Ron Hubbard doctrine.

January 2, 2009 / 19:13

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

My mom works with autistic children too.

January 2, 2009 / 19:17

Donna

Shame on you people, leave the family alone. You know nothing and this kind of gossip and cruel "what if" type on theatrics is horrible. I am saddened that they lost their only son that they loved. Pray for them and their long road ahead.

January 2, 2009 / 19:37

Donna

As the proud mother of a 13 year old Autistic son, I am horrified that this child is gone from us at such a young age. I've only seen a few pictures of Jett but it would be my opinion he had some form of Autism and his parents religion forbade them to seek the therapy and meds he might have needed to control the seizures. I don't understand how anyone could put a fake religion before their own child, my hearts breaks for Jett's sad short life and the fact that his parents were ashamed of him. Scientology is a sickness as is any fanatical "religion" RIP Jett!

January 2, 2009 / 19:51

Kristine

I am very sadden to hear of this tragedy. I have a 16 year old son and it would forever break my heart if he died. I pray to God for the family, to help them get through this.

January 2, 2009 / 20:04

Horonymous

Rich, Poor, Enlightened or not.
Tjt death of a child must just destroy you as a parent
RIP Jet

January 2, 2009 / 21:35

Donna W

I am so very sorry to hear of this tragedy. To lose a child would be unbearble pain for any parent. I pray for their pain and suffering to be lessened by the grace of God. I pray that the family is able to get through this trajic circumstance..and hold together and console each other and keep each other strong..

Mostly I do hope that their affiliation with the Church of Scientology did not stand in the way of searching for a correct diagnosis of their beloved sons condition...I have heard so many negative things about that Churches stand on Autistic children and other related conditions.

I am sure that John and Kelly loved their son very much...I just hope they were not blinded and intimidated by the Rules and doctrines of Scientology...What a waste of a life that would have been !!

January 2, 2009 / 21:36

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

I find this to be an interesting perspective, for what it's worth

http://www.exscientologykids.com/

I first found out about the above website from protestors outside the 'church' of scientology in toronto, near yonge and bloor.

January 2, 2009 / 21:48

emck

As a mother, I too, am saddened to hear of Jett's passing. Let's not think about things like religion, reasons, or beliefs, let's just offer prayers to the Travolta's for their loss.

January 2, 2009 / 21:52

Bob

This is sad. My 14 year old has autism and he suffers from seizures. It is truely a difficult family situation. As difficult as it is, to lose him would be devastating.

I've heard much about Jett over the years and his lack of speech, emotional fits, metal detoxing, and seizures do match a child with autism. I suspect John & Kelly had a private understanding on the matter seperate from what they could say being public faces of Scientology. To lose a special son like Jett is a horric situation. My heart goes to the Travolta family.

January 2, 2009 / 21:54

Regina L.

We don't know Jet...we do know he had Kawasaki disease which can cause seizures and other life long damage.

My son has Aspergers, so I know the spectrum. I do think people are being mean because they don't like Scientology--find some one not going through a crisis to discuss.

January 3, 2009 / 00:21

N

With all due respect Regina, the best posible thing that could come of this tragedy is greater awareness of the perversion and depravity of Scientology. This organization destroys lives. It causes so much pain. Please read a little on www.xenu.net and you'll see what I'm talking about.

January 3, 2009 / 00:38

N

http://www.endthecult.com/2009/01/a-former-scientologist-on-jett-travolta/

A former high-ranking Scientology insider says that Travolta or his intimates will most likely be blamed for Jett's death (as a result of their "negative emotions," they "pulled the event in.")
They will most likely have to pay as much as $1,000 PER HOUR in counseling fees to have the negative emotions resulting from Jett's death (what we call grief) blasted away Scientology-style. Imagine how much good those untold thousands of dollars could do for autistic children.

January 3, 2009 / 00:47

Cheryl

John, Kelly and Ella have nothing but my sincere sympathy. As for everyone that wants to bring spiritual beliefs into it, shame on you all. It is their right to practice any belief system that they wish. And it is for them to decide whether or not the belief system will fit their future lives. There is no religion on this Earth that is perfect because the imperfect human is always involved. Rather than cast the stones, save them to build a bridge for the gap that always exists.
Jett, may you rest in eternal peace and may your loving parents find peace in life now.

January 3, 2009 / 03:32

KATHLEEN

Get a life!

January 3, 2009 / 05:33

Roy

REST IN GODS ARMS YOUNG FELLA

January 3, 2009 / 07:42

Elbee

There is a strong link between autism and seizures.

I am sorry to the Travolta family.

But just as people remain aghast when Jehovah's Witnesses will not allow their child to have an appendectomy to save their lives, people should be equally (if not more) aghast that it is more than likely that this child was not on seizure medication - which Scientology is outrightly against.

Scientology has proved itself to be a cult. Their people have been apprehended for stealing government files. Those who speak out against them have their reputations slandered (as in, they go to your landlord and say you are a prostitute who brings your clients to your house...trying to get you evicted). If you are in Scientology, and your parents say one word against it - and your Scientology higher-ups find out, you are asked to "disconnect" them, or you can't proceed to the higher levels of enlightenment you wish to attain. As in, they hold you back (but keep any money you've paid), until you remove that person completely from your life.

Make no mistake. It is not a religion. It is a cult.

If it was a religion, why wouldn't all their "scripture" be free for everyone?

This is a tragedy, yes, a horrific sad thing. But was it someone's responsibility? I believe so.

We'll wait and see what the coroner's office has to say, if they are allowed to do an autopsy.

January 3, 2009 / 08:28

Jeanne in Montreal

My heart goes out to John, Kelly and little Ella Travolta for the loss of their beloved son (and big brother) Jett. I know how very precious he will always be to them. May the knowledge that his sweet spirit lives on offer them some comfort at this difficult time, and may they be surrounded and shielded with the support of their family and friends...and know that many people around the world are sending them much love today and always.

January 3, 2009 / 09:55

rosie1

As a nurse, I have seen people refuse simple, proven medical treatment because it is against their religion...it is difficult when someone chooses this for themselves, but even more so when they choose it for their children.

I look at the pictures through the years of young Jett's life and it seems to me that it is possible he had a seizure disorder, not treated, which over time caused brain damage and neurologic difficulties. He may not have been autistic at all, what was seen may have simply been the result of a seizure disorder untreated over many years. There are pics of him as a young boy, smiling and interactive, touching, hugging. I really get the feeling that they were against treating his seizures and this ended up causing his problems. It is sad, but in this country they do have the right to refuse common, simple medcal treatment based upon their personal beliefs.

January 3, 2009 / 10:16

Karen

If autism causes seizures, and Jett Travolta had autism that was not being treated due to his parents' religious beliefs, then Jett's death was not merely a tragedy, but also a tragedy that could have easily been prevented. Of course, everyone feels bad for the Travoltas. The loss of a child is the worst blow that a family can sustain. But what about Jett? Jett is now dead, possibly because he did not receive the treatment that he needed and deserved.

The victims of religious fanaticism are not merely taken out by bombs; they can also be killed by stupidity. I am very sorry for the Travoltas, but I am even more sorry for Jett.

January 3, 2009 / 10:16

Ron Goff

Has anyone cnsidered / connected the Hubbard (Scientology) practice of sweating the bad things injested out of you by the use of sauna, hot baths & showers? Poor dear child, I can only hope he was not practicing one of their evil false doctrines.

January 3, 2009 / 10:28

Mike from Lowville

Ahh religion.....the only religion that make any sense is the one run by those two whack jobs from Hamilton!

January 3, 2009 / 10:32

Dee

Larry King Live

I watched this on Larry King Live and I don't recall any mention of Jett having Autism. There I was feeling so sorry that Jett had Kawasaki Syndrome and had hit his head as a direct result to the disease which might be partially correct however if indeed he is Austistic, that is a whole different story that wasn't reported.
And since when do parents diagnose their children with what their religion dictates?? What century are we living in??
Incredible..

January 3, 2009 / 10:58

AMR

LOL. In short, most of you sound like repeating little ignorant clones......do you think for yourself? Did you do the needed research to form your highly biased opinions of Scientology? Or did you just sit there at your computer and start typing away. If so, I have a great idea for you.....get off your a$$ and stop watching the media aka "Merchants of Chaos" to help form your opinions. In short, get educated! Most of you need a long lesson in the fundamentals of philosophy. You also need to think independently and refrain from being judgemental when in fact you possess no real reality about the Scientology religion or any religion of that matter. Most of the comments on this page reflect just plain ignorance!

January 3, 2009 / 11:00

Dee

.. cont'd
I just watched the latest video clip of the family and you can clearly see Jett is autistic. He had his mouth hung open, rocking and staring at his hand. Or are those symptoms of having Kawasaki Syndrome?

January 3, 2009 / 11:10

Dee

AMR... very enlightening.
NEXT!

January 3, 2009 / 11:11

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

N is right. Spiritual beliefs my ass. Any religion which forces you to stay stuck in it can kiss my posterior. Yes, this is a tragedy. However the best thing that can come from this tragedy is AWARENESS not blindness and excuses. Read some stories on the ex kids of Scientology site and actually see what you are defending. Funny how the Scientology people only try to recruit me when I'm carrying shopping bags...

January 3, 2009 / 11:20

Amber

Dee,

I'm glad that you found my previous post so enlightening! I'm glad to be of service to you. I just could not help myself when I read posts similiar to yours, that read "Since when do parents diagnose their children with what their religion dictates?" Let me ask you this....Do you know the Travolta family personally? Do you know anything about the Scientology religion? You must possess some higher knowledge compared to the average joe because according to your post you are automatically assuming that religion dicates medical care.

January 3, 2009 / 11:24

Anonymous

If you watched John's interview on Larry King you would see that Jett was diagnosed with Kawasaki Syndrome by a medical doctor, not Scientology. The Travolta's loved their son and are suffering a great loss right now and it doesn't help that they're being attacked by the ignorant people who are looking for any reason to attack the religion of Scientology.

January 3, 2009 / 11:32

Amber

Hello Jason. You are the winner! You successfully met the stereotypical person I was referring to in my previous email. Do you always believe everything you read on the internet? Wow! The internet is such a great way to find reputable sources! LOL. I'm sure that ex Scientology kids site you speak about is very accurate indeed......! I know that I always believe everyghing that I read from the media. LOL. Again, think for yourself for a change and go to the source for real factual data. Every religion in history has been subjected to such biased scrutiny! The discrimination, hate and blame of the Scientology religion is nothing short of what all major religions have had to contend with over their course of existence.

January 3, 2009 / 11:38

Amber

Getting away from the religious aspect....The Travolta's have suffered a great loss. This is unfortunate and we should be sensitive to their beliefs and feelings. My heart goes out to them.

January 3, 2009 / 11:49

Anonymous

Can someone show me where it says L. Ron Hubbard in the bible?

January 3, 2009 / 11:57

Dee

And to sum this all up with one word - Denial!

January 3, 2009 / 13:15

Dee

Anonymous, the bible is not an RSVP club.
Jesus represents this, he wasn't going around to suggest he's all that! Quite the opposite. Once HUMANS can get this FACT the better.

January 3, 2009 / 13:52

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

In my opinion, there is no 'religious aspect' to Scientology. I didn't form my opinion just from Internet sources. That said, I find what these allegedly 'escaped' children have to say very interesting indeed. I looked at several sources and I have spoken to both 'for' and 'against' people. Did I not mention I've been personally approached on more than one occasion by the CoS? All these factors helped form my opinion about Scientology.

I am a fan of John Travolta's.. he's in one of my favourite movies. I think he's a fine actor. My heart truly goes out to his while family... but that doesn't mean I agree or am OK with what he believes and we all have the right to question whether those beliefs played a factor in this.

I'm also a fan of Tom Cruise and Beck.. but again..

January 3, 2009 / 14:21

Dee

Jason
Could care less who you are a "fan" of.
Someone died. He is the son of someone you are a "fan" of means nothing to me.
NEXT!

January 3, 2009 / 14:58

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

I am aware someone died. Maybe if you were more articulate I would understand your point..?

January 3, 2009 / 15:25

Joanne Siggens

Jett's death is just another example of what religion does to people. I have never met more hypocrites than the one's that go to church.

January 3, 2009 / 15:40

jamie

what's very strange is that a man who was a member of this cult died in the exact same manner at that freaky hotel they have in florida. he was found in his hotel room was an epileptic who went off his meds due to encouragment from his cult and had an apparant seizure and fell and hit his head on the table. his name was heribert pfaff he was 31 and its a rather odd coincidence esp if jett was not on meds and that to me screams medical neglect on his parent's end as well as the cult's end.

January 3, 2009 / 15:47

bob jones

Scientology a RELIGION? It's a money-making scam people. Please refer to what it really is. A legitimate religion asks for donations yes, while scientology charges for anything provided. It is a out and out scam/business.

January 3, 2009 / 16:02

robbie

Would you leave a 2 year old in a bathtub full of water? We have children and we are expected to be responsible parents. It is stated in Scientology readings that medication is not used. Vitamins and detoxification is used when there are "illnesses". Aspirin is used for Kawasaki's disease to thin the blood to prevent blood clots and it is a disease that inflicts children under the age of 5. But, according to Scientology: "aspirin clouds the brain". And anticonvulsant medications are very effective in preventing seizures. According to Scientology "vitamins are used in seizure disorder".
It really worked in Jett's life-didn't it? Yes, is is horrible beyond words to lose a child. But of all the religions in the world, other than Jehovah witnesses denying the use of another's blood in transfusions....this is the only practicing cult that actually outright acknowledges their ignorant beliefs. I hope and pray that Kelly takes Ella and Katie takes Suri and runs as far away from John and Tom as fast as they possibly can. A cult is a cult is a cult. Jett's death is dying proof.

January 3, 2009 / 16:03

jenn

The saddest part of the story to me is the fact that the family did follow the recognized medical treatment for Jett's history of seizures. This was the cause of his death, not the autism or Kawasaki Syndrome. Medications to prevent seizures are effective in over 70% of people prone to them. There are many different medications to choose from these days, and the proper dosage and type are safe for children and those with pre-existing medical conditions. Seizures (and epilepsy) are a medical condition, not a psychological one!!! As a woman who has a seizure disorder (also known as epilepsy) since her teens, I too would not be able to survive without medical tretment.

January 3, 2009 / 16:20

mimi

As a grandmother of a child with Autism, my heart is breaking...

Rest in Peace Jett....

Scientology is a CULT

January 3, 2009 / 17:13

Amber

To: Mimi, Robbie, Bob, Jamie and Joanne
Your comments remind me of a quote: "It is far better to sit there quietly and let people assume that you are ignorant then to open your mouth and remove all doubt." FOR THOSE OF YOU THAT LOVE TO PLAY THE BLAME GAME.....SCIENTOLOGY HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THIS UNFORTUNATE UNTIMELY DEATH.....GROW-UP PEOPLE, GET EDUCATED AND STOP OCCUPYING YOUR TIME WITH THIS TYPE OF NEGATIVISM. THE TRAVOLTA'S SUFFERED A GREAT DEAL AND YOUR IGNORANCE DOES NOT HELP THE MATTER OR IS IT JUSTIFIED HERE.

January 3, 2009 / 18:06

Donna

the travolta's ignored their son's seizure disorder and he died shame on them. I have no respect for any religion that denies medical intervention.

January 3, 2009 / 19:46

spacecat

My son is a high function "Autie". Jett Travolta WAS Autistic. His appointment always coincided with my son's at a speech therapists office in LA. I always saw Ms. Preston. She is a dedicated mother. Always went with her son (yes, she did have a small entourage). You don't go to Speech for Kawasaki...very common for Autism though. She was always nice, I feel terrible about this.I hope Scientology changes their policy, yet I would never judge this boys parents.

January 3, 2009 / 20:19

Spacecat

A correction: I saw her at this Speech therapy office 9 years ago. I did not mean to imply that it was recent.

January 3, 2009 / 20:22

Toronto Mike

Here's something from May 2007 that's worth adding to this discussion. I culled this from http://www.wwtdd.com/post.phtml?pk=2268 .

For years the rumor has been that Jett Travolta, the now 14-year-old son of John Travolta and Kelly Preston, is autistic. Unfortunately for Jett, autism is not recognized by the Church of Scientology, of which Preston and Travolta are both prominent members. The Travolta's instead say he suffers from Kawasaki syndrome, an illness characterized by high fever, painful rash, lymph-node swelling and street legal rice-rockets. Four years ago, Kelly got out her hounds-tooth coat and pipe and giant magnifying glass and used her sleuthiness to determine that the cause was environmental toxins. Specifically, carpet cleaning chemicals. Then Kelly used a Scientology endorsed program created by L. Ron Hubbard to cure him. And it worked! No, wait, did I say, "it worked"? I meant to say, "it failed completely!"

The real problem of course isn’t carpet based treachery, it's that Jett has autism, and no amount of meadow-scented deception is behind it. He's never been officially diagnosed of course, since the "church" won't allow it, but outsiders who know the affliction well say the signs are clearly evident.

Now, a neighbor who himself is the parent of an autistic child, is attempting to turn the heat up on Travolta and involve child protective services, claiming that ignoring this child's illness and allowing it to go untreated is tantamount to child abuse. Hollywood Interrupted says:

Tim and Patricia Kenny are the proud parents of a 4 year-old autistic girl, believe that it might be time for Child Protective Services to look into John Travolta and wife Kelly's negligence in acknowledging their son Jett's reported autism.
The Kennys also claim that Kelly and John "let Jett sit in front of video games all day eating junk food, while they eat the best organic food money can buy. They exclude Jett from all social events because they are embarrassed."
"Once," reports Kenny, "when Kelly took him to the movies, Jett started to have a meltdown and Kelly pointed at the nanny and ordered, 'Take care of it.'"
"Jett does not speak at all," confirms Kenny. "He has not even been taught how to communicate. We struggle every week to pay for our daughter's therapy. How dare he [Travolta] ruin his own son's chances of recovering! We want to get the word out on this."

I say we give the Scientology method a few more years to kick in. Soon, Jett will be dead. Ta-da!

January 3, 2009 / 20:53

brad

Autopsy results should come Monday. I think this is a story that will blow up in the mainstream press next week.

This is big. Sad as all hell, but big.

January 3, 2009 / 22:34

Jane

I think Scientology killed Jett Travolta! I work in the medical filed Kawasaki disease doesn't kill 16 year old kids! This was a front for his parents. If Jett would have been treated properly, he would be alive today. Scientology has gone too far! Jett's death could have been avoided. Just wait, the autopsy reports won't have anything to do with Kawasaki disease!!!!!

January 4, 2009 / 01:24

serrie

I am so sorry for the travolta family--This is a tragedy no parent should endure--my heart breaks for them. Whether or not scientology influenced them or not does not matter. It was their son and their right to choose. Why can"t people just be kind in this most horrible time--leave them alone in their grief. I pray for their peace and feel for their hearts.

January 4, 2009 / 03:31

Amber

Here is the latest news directed at all of those ignorant comments above and the people that composed them. Again...I REPEAT...the Scientology religion had nothing to do with this unfortunate situation. People that want to blame a religion that they know nothing about are equivalent to Nazi Germans persecuting the Jews......


REPORTED FROM THE NY DAILY NEWS:
"A nanny always slept 8 feet away from him. A baby monitor was always on. Everything possible was done to ensure the child's safety," McDermott said. "It is possible that Kawasaki disease could cause a heart attack, said Dr. Thomas Lehman, an expert on the malady at the Hospital for Special Surgery in New York (NYDailyNews.com)." "If you scar an artery, it can tighten up and that can lead, many years later, to a patient having a heart attack at a much earlier age than would be expected," he said.

January 4, 2009 / 08:19

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

I know enough to know Scientogy isn't a "religion" say hi to Tom and Katie for me, Amber.

January 4, 2009 / 09:35

Piffin

I sincerely feel for the pain the Travolta's are now experiencing.

I have also spent time looking deeply into Scientology and think it boils down to a bunch of hogwash, but I do not wish to get into the discussion of whether it had any direct impact of cause in this death.

But I do know the travoltas. Members of my family have worked in his household. My purpose in writing this is to help clear up some informational doubts.

It was clear to anyone working around Jett that he was indeed autistic. It is a fact that his seizures have increased in number recently. It is also true that John and Kelly have lived in denial about the cause of Jetts condition for all his life. There can be many reasons for a parent to do that, religious philosophy amoung them. It can be easier for the very wealthy to hide certain things from the world and to control their own environment.

It can be less easy for them to control matters of life and death in the real world.

I myself am waiting for autopsy results to be made public before making any conclusions myself, but given the family history, I would not be surprise if the full report was not made public.

January 4, 2009 / 09:35

Amber

Jason,

It is blatantly obvious that you do not know a thing about Scientology, religion or even basic philosophy for that matter. Scientology is an applied religious philosophy based on the teachings of the great L. Ron Hubbard. It meets all the requirements for a religion. It teaches that Man is indeed a Spiritual Being. This is no different than any other accepted religion. Scientology in a nutshell embraces all major religions and represents the "good" in the world like all religious philosophies. They just want to help people free themselves from insanities and help people find peace in themselves and others. I assure you.....I've studied numerous religions and I'm one of the BIGGEST sceptics you could ever meet...But take my word for it...the Scientologists are great people and a lot of their teachings you will find in all major religions. It is also not a monotheistic religion. Think Buddhism and the search for truth and wisdom. Please take my word for this. Most people get Dianetics and Scientology confused. Dianetics deals with something entirely different. All L. Ron Hubbard wanted to do was help those that are able to help themselves.

Also wanted to add:
I am a registered and licensed health professional and I can tell you this.....medicine has got away from "The healing arts" and it is now a powerful business. Over 70% of human ailments are of psychosomatic origin but most medical doctors will deny this and continue to pad their pockets and the pockets of their pharmaceutical buddies! Sadly, many doctors will give their patients a pill in the hopes that this will mask or "numb" them enough so that they can get on with their next patient or paying customer. I also have a family member who is severly autistic and we have been in a class action lawsuit with a major pharmaceutical company over the toxicities of numerous child vaccines. I know the pain of autism. I also know that psychiatry or drugging a child will not cure the child but only make him/her a zombie in society. Autism as of now is an abomination....know one really knows what causes it! I would put my money on external environmental factors and vaccines if I had to bet however.

Thanks for hearing me out.

:)

January 4, 2009 / 10:29

Amber

Piffin,

Your last comment is so out of line that I don't even know where to begin....? However, I'll try my best to break this down easy for you.

#1: If indeed you or any of your family members have had the privelage of working with the Travolta's you should be aware of a thing called...CONFIDENTIALITY...I sincerely hope that you or your so called family members have since been fired from the Travolta household! I'm also pretty sure that you are not a medical professional or any other person that can actually give a definitive or even a differential diagnosis of Jett's situation.

#2: I don't believe for a minute that you actually looked "deeply into the Scientology relgion." If you did prove it to me......What did you find wrong with it? What was so "hogwash" about it?

LOL. I give you one point out of 100 for trying to convince others however.

I would bet all of my life savings on the fact that the only so called "real" research you did on the religion was plug the words "Scientology" into a Google Search Engine.

That is all.

January 4, 2009 / 10:54

Mike from Lowville

Amber? Would you like some help getting that bug out of your azz? You need to go find an airport and preach your support for your beloved L Ron Hubbard. You may find an audience!

January 4, 2009 / 11:15

Sonja

Our 10year old girl gets seizures. She is ASD/PDD it all started with High fever convulsions. since she was 7 months due to cronical ear infections. Now she drinks medication (Convulex) and she doesn't get the seizures. Sometimes she does stare. I feel so sorry for John and Kelly and their daughter. Our prayers are with them. It is very very hard to loose a child.

January 4, 2009 / 11:16

Amber

Mike-

Why don't you actually make a statement that has some substance.

It is blatantly obvious that you are yet another ignorant person with only a big mouth and NO REAL FACTUAL INFORMATION!

Let me remind you....this is a blog and a discussion area! I have every right to defend my opinion. If you want to debate....bring it on! I can guarantee you will not last long given your history and your previous mindless blank comment.

January 4, 2009 / 11:29

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Amber, it sounds like you have some degree of intelligence. I still don't think Scientology is a religion. That's my OPINION. I don't care if it 'qualifies' as one. According to who? You? I do know plenty about Scientology. I know even more about it since this incident. It's a CULT.

If you know so much about Scientology, feel free to tell us why it's so hard to escape for those who wish to leave. Feel free to tell me why it costs so much $$$ to stay "on the course". Gee I wonder...

You say it is blatantly obvious that I no nothing about philosophy. Well, that happened to be my minor.

I could present to you some cold hard chilling facts about Scientology, but I think your personal opinion is formed as is mine. I will respectfully disagree with you and leave it at that.

Your comparing Scientology to Buddism almost made me snort coffee out of my nose, by the way.

January 4, 2009 / 11:55

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

P.S.

Deaths in Scientology's Fort Harrison Hotel

Flag is the abbreviation of Flag Land Base, Scientology's presence in Clearwater. The first building they bought was the 272-room Fort Harrison hotel.

Lisa McPherson (36)
Room 174?
On December 5, 1995, Lisa McPherson died. Scientology had held her against her will for 17 days. During that time, she tried to leave, became violent, and refused to eat. At the time of her death, she had bruises and abrasions on her body, and she had lost over 30 pounds in just 17 days.

Heribert Pfaff (31)
Room 758
According to the records, Heribert P. died august 28, 1988, during the night from a heavy epileptic attack. He hit his head on the night table. The scientology doctor reports that he prescribed vitamins for his patient -dispite regular attacks- in stead of treating him with proper medication. Such medication was indeed not detected in his blood during the post-mortem examination.

Josephus Havenith (45)
Room 771

An autopsy report lists his death as "probable drowning" but notes that his head was not under water. He died in February 1980 at the Scientology Fort Harrison Hotel in a bathtub filled with water so hot it had burned his skin off.

Unknown
Boilerroom
1989, dead in the basement, next to the heating boilers. Carbon-monoxide poisoning . Ex-scientologists have alleged in affidavits and a declaration that the boiler room was used for Scientology's Rehabilitation Project Force (gulag).

January 4, 2009 / 11:57

elvis

Amber - wow - someone here might be able to help you out.

http://www.fcguys.com/default2.asp

January 4, 2009 / 12:45

scientology_is_a_scam

L Ron Hubbard was mentally ill and his hatred for psychiatry/psychology was a result of his own self denial.

This of course led to one of the pillar tenets of CoS and is reflected in the chief spokesperson ala Tom Cruise's infamous deranged behavior on Oprah.

Having said that the Travolta's beliefs are their own and if they chose not to treat their son's autism that is their choice that they must now live with the rest of their lives.

January 4, 2009 / 12:46

Piffin

Amber Dear,

Here is my last statement
"given the family history, I would not be surprise if the full report was not made public."

in your diatribe against what I said, you confirmed what I said - that the privacy of this family is closely gaurded and that employees can be fired or sued for exposing things that happen in the household.

It so happens that my family members were in employment there before the confidentiality agreements were made a condition of employment. But none of what I wrote here is anything that is not public already. And you will not be able to bait me into saying what things I know ARE protected, both by legal confidentiality and by simple human sympathy for privacy rights.

I can understand that to you I am only a piece of text on a screen, but my knowledge of and experience with Scientology precedes Goggle by at least a dozen years. But I could also ask you what authority you have to criticize anyone else here and pronounce them all to be ignorant of Scientology? You are just a piece of text also, with nobody having any reason to believe what you type. So we can choose to disbelieve each other. If you want a fight, I'm sure somebody else can easily oblige you, given your war-like attitude.

Your cult-like defense of the sect makes me tend towards thinking that you are a zealous member of the church, except that the members I know are far more well balanced, polite, and better mannered than you appear to be here. Some of John's employees are less well mannered, so I can imagine you on his team of PR people.

I offer simple facts for those interested, so there is no need to attack me or mine personally. My family members who were serving inside their household all moved on to better positions in their careers, with good references, not from termination.

January 4, 2009 / 13:04

Anonymous

Not shame on us, shame on them. As average humans we are seeking answers to something we are having troube wrapping our brains around.

My heart was hurting for them since, I also lost a child.

But, when I found out more it angered me.

How can parents who claimed to love thier child suscribe to such nonsense? I hope that this will be a wake-up call for them.

My family who are jehovah's wittness's attacked me for letting my surviving twin get a blood transfusion. The hosptal heard they were JW and got a court order thinking I was also so, I did not have a choice anyway but,they felt like I should have fought them and let my child die for thier stupid beliefs. I had just lost her twin there is no way I was losing her also. She is 17 now and she has a high functioning type of autsim which my family says is my punishment for taking blood.

I am glad she is alive and her autism will not stop her from living a normal life since, autism is gentic several other famly members have it and they are all independant and living "normal' lives so, "normal" they have the time to attack me for getting treatment for my daughter's autism (it's not even medical treatment but, they still are appaulled that I accept that autism is real.) they don't aknowledge it but, it does not mean it is'nt there. I wonder what they did to deserve such an aflection? religion should bring families together and comfort those in pain not,destroy and cause more pain. If your religion is preeching hate,what is it purpose?

January 4, 2009 / 13:26

Anonymous

Kawasaki disease effects little kids,and does not cause sezuires. That lie was useless and not even passable they should at least come up with something better than that because according to them, isn't that also brought on by something the child did wrong? I feel for the family, they have the pain of his death and guilt of knowing they did nothing to hep him if, he only had Kawasaki disease why did he need a nanny? my 17 year old does not need a nanny.

January 4, 2009 / 13:36

Piffin

the Travoltas quit calling that position 'Nanny' quite a long time ago, when it became obvious that Jett was too strong for a female to control. They term the job that of "Caretaker"

But your point is obvious and still true, regardless of terminology.

January 4, 2009 / 13:52

Amber

The only real facts in this case are that the Travolta's lost a child, a loved one. It would not matter if the Travolta's were Muslims, Buddhists, Jewish, Christians, Pagans, etc... The fact is that religion is meant to do well in the world and Scientologists are truly great people that mean only good things.

I support all religions because I know the value of recognizing that there is a spiritual side to life. The mindless batter that has been going on in this blog is quite disappointing to say the very least. I have tried my best to come across as calm and sincere but so many people post before even thinking things through. Please just do some honest reearch from reputable sources.

I'm sorry if I came across as harsh....I just know the benefits of religion and I wish that other people did too. I also recommend going to the source for those of you that have only done your research through the internet. Buy a book, take a course and see for yourself. That is the only way your opinion will be reputable and respectable.

That is all.

January 4, 2009 / 15:20

Dee

Finally a debate!
And it's without graphs and charts. Imagine that!

January 4, 2009 / 15:24

Piffin

There ya go!

Be well.

January 4, 2009 / 15:26

Aunt Mare

I am the mother of a 8 year old autistic child, he's the light and the greatest love of my life.
My husband and myself would move heaven and hell to help our child.
I hate scientology they are a dangerous cult and this proves it.
I don't have John and Kelly's star power but I have a youtube account with video's of my son so it will help other parents and anyone who asks a question about autism.
I feel bad for anyone who loses a child because the simple fact is the kids come first not your religion or for that matter anything else.
Protect your children!

January 4, 2009 / 15:46

Amber

LOL.

(We've got another live one here guys!)

Welcome Aunt Mare! It sounds like you will fit right in here.......

There are plenty of Scientology haters just like you, so enjoy yourself. You are of the majority here that insists there is a direct correlation between the religion and the neglect of autism.

Welcome aboard......

January 4, 2009 / 16:04

Dee

Amber, and you fit in where exactly? Where does Amber fit in? Please explain.

January 4, 2009 / 16:37

Amber

I'm just providing another point-of-view per se.....I just like to get people thinking.

In the great words of Socrates..."I know that I know nothing."

Socrates began all wisdom with wondering, thus one must begin with admitting one's ignorance.

January 4, 2009 / 16:59

Piffin

Hmmm...

That must be why you were so vociferous in telling so many folks that they were ignorant about Scientology. you merely wanted to start them on the road to wisdom, right?

;)

January 4, 2009 / 17:08

Mike from Lowville

AGAIN I SAY! You want some help getting the BUG out of your ASS? I feel so unworthy when you speak, you know it all. Go grab a book and curl up with your cat.

January 4, 2009 / 17:34

Stafford

I've popped a second bowl of Cajun kernels if you folk can keep this wonderful thread going!

Viva Web 2.0!

January 4, 2009 / 18:03

Amber

:)

I feel like I'm stuck in a perpetual spin cycle here with you guys.

We are churning and getting nowhere fast!

I'm retiring from this blog.....

Good luck.

January 4, 2009 / 18:04

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

I understand the benefits of an individual exploring one's spirituality, not of 'cults'. Give it up.

Amber, you lost your cred. when you said "...the great L. Ron Hubbard..." an I think most here would agree.

Anyone who knows the FACTS about THAT guy wouldn't called him "great"

January 4, 2009 / 18:07

elvis

Amber - you're not married to Argie by any chance are you? You two would make a great couple.

Can't wait to see you again.

January 4, 2009 / 18:22

Amber

Jason,

One more just for you big boy....

L. Ron Hubbard was and always will be GREAT. He served his country in the US Navy. He was also an engineer and excelled in the field of mathematics. Thus, he was not some religious “nut job” he used scientific facts and observations to formulate and support his findings.

Scientologists do not have a so-called doctrine nor do they chant like the Catholics. They live by the theme: “Whatever is true for you.” Scientology is the furthest thing away from “brainwashing” than you could ever fathom!

Hubbard was a true philosopher and had an inquisitive mind that led him to uncover the fundamental basics underlying all major religions. I assure you this runs a lot deeper than something you’ve seen on an episode of South Park or where ever you’ve been getting your sources concerning Scientology.

In short, Hubbard had a compelling and brilliant mind that led him on many expeditions searching for the fundamental truths in life. He traveled to many countries throughout the world and studied numerous cultures (including their religions and belief systems).

His goal was to find the reasons why so many suffered needlessly. He developed a technology known as Dianetics and later stumbled upon the Spirit and so this is when Scientology evolved.

I charge $100 dollars an hour for providing you with enlightenment by the way. How should I send the bill? Nothing in Scientology is free you've stated in a previous post.

If you’d like me to continue with the history lesson please insert your credit card.

LOL.

;)

January 4, 2009 / 18:31

Toronto Mike

Gawker asks if the tragic death of John Travolta's teenage son Jett could spell the end of Scientology, sci-fi author L. Ron Hubbard's loopy, medicine-hating cult from the 1950s.

The tragic death of John Travolta's teenage son Jett could spell the end of Scientology, sci-fi author L. Ron Hubbard's loopy, medicine-hating cult from the 1950s.

Jett's parents, Travolta and Kelly Preston, are both "clear" — an exalted, expensively attained status in Scientology. Critics of Scientology have long known that the pseudo-religion, based on Hubbard's Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health, discourages adherents from seeking medical help for problems they deem "psychosomatic." That old line about it being all in your head forms the basis of Scientology's weird belief system; most problems, even if they manifest themselves physically, are spiritual in nature, stemming from the patient's "reactive mind." Even aspirin is deemed a mood-altering drug to be avoided — too bad if you take it to prevent blood clots.

Hence the controversy over Jett Travolta's apparent death from a head injury, likely incurred after he suffered a seizure in the Bahamas condo where the Travolta family and their two nannies were staying. John Travolta and Kelly Preston have long claimed Jett developed Kawasaki disease after exposure at a young age to carpet-cleaning chemicals, which resulted in seizures, a claim medical experts find unlikely. At the time of his death, he was under the care of Jeff Kathrein, a wedding photographer whose main qualification for the nanny post seemed to be a course he completed in Scientology and a kiss he shared with Travolta.

Whatever the cause of his seizures, a Travolta family lawyer now says Jett had been taking Depakote, an anti-seizure medication, but had to stop it because of liver damage. Liver damage from Depakote is rare; more recently, the FDA has been concerned about its link to suicidal thoughts — exactly the kind of condition Scientologists they believe they can treat through the religious coursework they call "auditing."

Travolta's actor buddy Tom Cruise has made the church's stance infamous through his wildly unpopular tour of the talk shows in which he tried to advance Scientology's anti-pyschiatry views. His badgering of NBC's Matt Lauer on the Today show pales in comparison to his crazy-laughing-guy turn in a private Scientology video. He's since declared that he's not going to share his Scientologist beliefs with the public, a decision which seems to have boosted box-office returns for Valkryie, his latest film.

Good for Cruise, bad for Scientology, which desperately needs Cruise's star power to spread the church's message. As well as his money, rumor has it — the church, once a financial powerhouse, is said to be strapped for cash.

Travolta and Preston surely loved Jett, and are as grieved by his death as any parent would be. But the accusation will linger that they privileged their adherence to Scientology over their devotion to their son. The death of Lisa McPherson, a 36-year-old Florida Scientologist who died after church members removed her from a hospital where she was due to receive psychological care, received little attention outside of local newspapers. Jett Travolta's death, on the other hand, is winning international attention, and raising the question of Scientology's anti-medicine stance. Could the quest of Hubbard's cult to spread the faith by courting Hollywood celebrities have backfired once and for all?

January 4, 2009 / 18:31

Amber

Elvis,

I think your "home boys" are calling you from your favorite website:

http://www.fcguys.com

Isn't this the one you offered me earlier? Which one is your b*tch? I'm sure you like the skinny white boys!

By the way.....Are you off work tonight? I'm glad that you were able to pull the d*ck out of your mouth and join us once again.

You are a sick one and you're comments reflect the vulgar character you possess.

Get a life!

January 4, 2009 / 18:41

Maggie

I lost a son 3 months ago he was 37 but it was a complete surprise to us. What they need now are prayers. It is something they will never get over and if they could have done something but they didn't because of a belief then that is something they will have to bear later on,now their hearts are breaking just like mine or anyone else who has lost a child no matter what their age and we will always say was there something else I could have done. Now I am praying for them.
Maggie

January 4, 2009 / 18:43

Toronto Mike

Yes, a son has been lost, and that must be devastating for Jett's parents.

I wrote this entry because I believe Jett suffered and died needlessly, because a cult refused to recognize mental illnesses. It's fairly clear to me that Jett had Autism which is often associated with epilepsy. In the US, nearly half of autistic children are prescribed anti-convulsion drugs, and Jett was not so blessed at the time of his death.

Since I wrote this entry, I've seen a great deal of traffic to this page, and I've been able to read dozens of comments from various angles. I've also followed the news on this closely, as a responsible web publisher should.

Last night a close friend of Joey Travolta, John's film-maker brother, gave The Mirror an insight into family divisions caused by Jett's illness.

The friend said Joey and John regularly argued about what was wrong with Jett. John did not believe it was autism, a condition not recognized by Scientology. Joey learned about the disorder when he interviewed 65 autistic youngsters for a documentary called Normal People Scare Me.

The idea of the film was to teach people about the syndrome, which can spark violent seizures. Joey also formed the group Actors for Autism which helps sufferers make films.

The friend said: "Joey could see Jett in every one of those 65 kids he spoke to. It was so obvious Jett was autistic just from spending five minutes with him, but the cruel fact of their religion meant his parents simply did not accept it."

Scientologists believe mental illness is psychosomatic, that people who suffer from it are defective human beings, and teach that it should be treated through spiritual healing. They reject the use of drugs to treat mental conditions.

The friend said: "Parents who had children in the same classes as Jett would gather round after school and say, 'Are they in denial or what?'"

I believe this denial, as dictated by Scientology, is responsible for Jett's death. If I'm right, and I hope I'm not but suspect I am, I'm just looking for accountability. As a father and a member of a civilized society, I believe Jett deserved better.

January 4, 2009 / 18:53

Mike from Lowville

And while your at it, pray for Amber. All Redheads need help!

January 4, 2009 / 18:55

Mike from Lowville

Oh, and a quote from the know it all, "All L. Ron Hubbard wanted to do was help those that are able to help themselves." You said it. I guess that didn't include the helpless ones. Case closed. Now go away you fanatical, professional. I hope I never am touched by the likes of you!

January 4, 2009 / 19:03

carolyn

After losing a son ourselves,
my heart goes out to the family. I encourage people to just give them the minimal respect of time to grieve before pointing fingers and making accusations. There will be plenty of time for discussions later. Now, is the time to pray for the parents and sister of this
precious young man.

January 4, 2009 / 19:13

Mike from Lowville

Mike, I think with that last bit of info, the Amber one, lost ALL credibility!

January 4, 2009 / 19:16

Toronto Mike

I already miss Amber...

And while I'm commenting, read this.

January 4, 2009 / 19:18

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Amber you have showed us, finally, where you are REALLY coming from. You have also left out well known facts about Hubbard, and included only the ones that support your position. What a politician you make!

This isn't a political issue, it's a humanitarian one. Scientology ruins lives and compromises one's basic rights. Like Mike says, Jett deserved better. People deserve better.

Amber the way in which you attacked Elvis does nothing for your cause or credibily. How long before you freak out like Tom Cruise on the Oprah show?

That said, I think the important point has been made. This death is a tragedy and it's a good thing to have an open discussion about accountability.

January 4, 2009 / 19:18

Mike from Lowville

If this was a nobody's son, would it be so debated? Only because it's HollyWeird, makes me want to puke.

January 4, 2009 / 19:20

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Mike from Lowville you may be right but there are a list of deaths related to Scientology that deserve more attention and perhaps the only thing that can come out of this tragedy is an increased awareness about The Cult (no... not the band...)

January 4, 2009 / 19:31


Amber

Is Toronto Mike your stage name? Who is the great OZ behind the curtain...?

It is awful creepy that Mike from Lowville knows that I'm a redhead? How is this possible exactly...? What kind of blog are you running here and mostly how is the color of my hair relevant?

January 4, 2009 / 19:41

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Amber why don't you 'do a little research' if you are so curious... most of the answers to your questions are on this blog

January 4, 2009 / 20:30

Ajax Mike

Hey hold on there Mike from Lowville.. Mike from Ajax here happens to be redhead. That comment was hairist!

*ahem* As for the topic at hand...

Bah. I've nothing to say that hasn't been said by others, far better and worse than I could say it.

My semi-informed, semi-ignorant opinion: All religions are cults to a degree and the world would be a better place without them. Whether Scientology is a cult, religion, or self-help organization, I think we'd be better off without them too.

January 4, 2009 / 20:33

Amber

I know what I've stumbled upon....just some computer geeks with nothing else to do but b*tch about religion and whatever else they can conjure up to get a rise out of good people. A bona fide "Good Ol' Boys Club." By the way.....I like how each one of your individual blogs give reference to the other.

Sorry to waste so much of my own time. I was actually hoping to have an honest, mature and half-way intelligent debate. I won't find it on this blog however.

I'm sure you guys are also in cahoots with that tool Elvis also. He is a real winner recommending gay websites to people. REAL MATURE! I'm sure all of your blogs are linked as favorites on that website.....they fit right in.

Good luck boys! Perhaps one day you will be men.....Fat chance in hell however!

Keep pounding away....and spreading negativity in the world. It is people like you that society needs to help clean up!

January 4, 2009 / 20:52

Toronto Mike

Amber, shoot an email to me at mike@torontomike.com - I have a couple of questions for ya.

January 4, 2009 / 20:54

Anonymous

Toronto Mike....

Can't you just right click "View Source" and find my email....I thought you would be a computer guru by now...? It is your blog...can't you trace emails and IP addresses of incoming traffic. I know that my website can! If you have a question for me post it here.

January 4, 2009 / 20:59

Toronto Mike

The web doesn't work like that.

I know your IP address, but only your ISP will be able to identify you with that info.

January 4, 2009 / 21:14

bob jones

@Amber

Given that the sons of two of the most famous scientology families have had some sort of fatal mind illness (Quinten Hubbard, the son of Ron Hubbard himself, committed suicide - that resulting from another 'mind-illness' which wasn't cured), you can't help but conclude that scientology 'tech' really doesn’t work. I mean, if those that created the 'tech' can't save their own children, then what chance would their followers (who 'duplicate' the tech) have of any success with it?


Also L Ron is a fraud, your denial is beneath me.

January 4, 2009 / 21:37

Mike from Lowville

Rotflmfao!!

January 4, 2009 / 21:39

Bob Jones

With Jett Travolta’s death, Michael Pattinson, a former Operating Thetan level 8 in Scientology, explains the process that is likely to occur with Jett’s parents and how the media will be handled by Scientology public relations.

For those fans and media who will be trying to come to a real understanding of what will happen with the John Travolta, Kelly Preston and Scientology with regard to this, I can offer some educated guesses based on a very long term (24 years) devoted experience and membership in Scientology….

The vast majority of people will have no idea what this kind of thing will probably entail as far as Scientology style “follow up” is concerned.

Firstly, information about what the family is doing will most likely be curtailed or cut. Scientology spokespeople will very likely give out generalized “press releases” through lawyers or PR personnel that will give no real substance for informing the public.

Secondly, the questions that have arisen about whether the anti-drug/anti-pharmaceutical tenets of Scientology might possibly have actually prevented Jett from receiving proper medical treatment or preventative assistance will be downplayed, denied, ridiculed and/or harshly criticized to try to get attention off the issue as fast as possible. This aspect, however, may not just “go away”. It is a question of life or death, after all…

Thirdly, the family will very likely go to Clearwater, Florida (or maybe have Scientology professionals come to their Florida home, but this is far less likely) to the Oak Cove building and/or Sandcastle Hotel for what Scientology calls “handlings”. These handlings will very likely entail the following;

0. Meeting with the staff member who deals with grieving people to cover physical details of a funeral and/or a memorial. Then those arrangements would be planned and carried out. The liaison would probably be done the current celebrity handler who would be a high ranking Sea Organization member.

1. Ethics interviews and associated procedures. (Scientology’s “Division 1″ services.)

This aspect of services would look into the unfortunate and tragic event of Jett’s death being a possible result of some kind of personal ethics breach or lack of integrity by the parents. In particular the individual parents would have separate interviews about their own role in the tragedy or how come they “pulled in” (a Scientology ethics jargon term) such an awful situation by something in their own behavior.

The Scientology celebrity ethics officer would also actively look for one or more people in the Travoltas’ circle of friends, acquaintances who might be antagonistic to or even anti-Scientology and who could have had sufficient negative influence to “cause” such a tragedy. That person would then be the target of possible disconnection (shunning), firing or lawsuit/fair game. There would be many steps possible for John and Kelly coming out of the “Ethics” handlings, and these could not be predicted here.

***It is worthy of note that the potential question of NOT giving proper or adequate medication would not be considered a Scientology ethics violation due to L.Ron Hubbard’s indoctrination to avoid such medical or psychological types of treatment. In fact, the failure to give doctor-recommended drugs or medications to Jett might factually be considered to be a laudable Scientology ethics matter.***

2.Correction interviews and procedural steps (Scientology’s “Division 5″ services).

These steps, sometimes called “Review” would be services designed to address any failures of John or Kelly (and/or Jett’s caretaker, as I believe he is a Scientologist) to have properly applied relevant Scientology technologies to their son or his living situation within the family. Any strictly Scientology-dictated ways of living that are detected as to having been omitted or misapplied would have to be re-studied and drilled till they become second nature.

3.Technical sessions (”auditing”) (Scientology’s “Division 4″ services.

This would be some very expensive counseling sessions and personal programs designed to remove, if possible, all the negative emotions from this awful tragedy. This can cost up to $1000 an hour. The outcome of this step is varied in its success and can take weeks or months to complete.

*******************************************

A more cynical prediction: I would also comfortably estimate that Scientology, as an organization, would attempt to get the maximum financial and public relations benefit from this horrible tragedy. It will be interesting to watch how they go about doing this. In any case the organization through its spokespeople will tend to avoid truth, responsibility and facts. It will also use the media without being of any real service to the media. Hubbard hated journalists almost as much as he hated psychologists, doctors and psychiatrists.

January 4, 2009 / 21:40

El Diablo

Amber, you go on a lot about "philosophy" and how those who do not subscribe to the theory that scientology is a religion, are somehow lacking in philosophical understanding.

I can only assume then, that you are well educated in this field, which is fortunate, because I am too! Not just philosophy, but also science...and history! I'm one of them all-rounder kinda gals, with rather thick glasses, so I must be a nerd, right? I assume you too have thick glasses, given your obvious intellectual superiority to every single other person here.

It seems odd then that I cannot bring myself to describe the "Church" of Scientology as anything other than a "cult" (in the modern 'destructive' sense of the word, rather than the broader meaning encompassing any small non-mainstream spiritual sect) and can be categorized as such because it meets certain criteria.

http://www.caic.org.au/general/cultcrit.htm

But how can this be so? We are obviously both bright sparks amongst a field of dim bulbs, yet we disagree! How could this happen? What could have gone awry?

Perhaps, the criteria are somehow wrong?

Perhaps I incorrectly ascribe the properties mentioned therein, to the Church of Scientology?

No, they seem pretty on the money...and on the balance of evidence, I'd give big ticks to pretty much all of 'em when measuring the CoS against them. If you are indeed correct, my views, which are contradictory to yours, must by definition be wrong! Yet I can't see the particular folly I've wandered into!

Certainly, a great philosophical mind like yours will be quite apt at detecting the error of my ways. I eagerly await your response, lest my mind continue to wallow in acrid ignorance!

* * *

But before I go, a few other points are bothering me:

1) Since when has L.Ron been a great engineer and mathematician? Sure *HE* claimed it...but where's the evidence? I'll believe it when a reputable institution produces independent evidence of this. Until then, sorry, but he's not a "great man" by any stretch of the imagination.

2) He really wasn't that good at sci-fi, either. Too bad really. I think in retrospect we all wish he'd excelled in this area and had a very, VERY long and busy career publishing fiction...with no time for anything else.

...and I mean fiction, that you find in the 'fiction' section, rather than 'self-help' or 'spirituality'.

Anyhow,
Peace out, Amber!

-El Diablo

January 4, 2009 / 21:45

LEW

I respect the need for people to have faith; it's sales reps have me doubting the existence of a divine being.

January 4, 2009 / 21:56

elvis

For the record, it's not a gay website. It's an escort service for women. I figured you'd be slagged enough so I assumed your name Amber represented a female. I was just playing the odds.

I wish I was important enough to be "in cahoots" with anyone. I guess I'd have to join this cult to actually feel that important.

January 4, 2009 / 22:10

El Diablo

...or you could start one! You'd definitely feel important then.

Although side-effects could include *becoming a millionaire*, which is alright for some, but really, a mil ain't what it used to be.

But it sure beats working for a penny a word :)

January 5, 2009 / 02:08

elvis

That's a great idea...I like it.

January 5, 2009 / 06:00

Anonymous

This is so sad. As a parent that lost a child (15 years old), I am appalled at the lack of consideration for this family. Trust me, the Travolta's will have their own "what if's" for many years if not forever. The last thing they need is people speculating on whether or not they did or didn't do the correct things in their son's life...they will do this in their minds over and over again. If "denial" helps them cope with their grief, then let them be in denial, if Scientology helps them get thru their grief, then more power to them. Unless you've lost a child, please don't judge them, if you've lost a child, you know-I heard a saying "the world is never the same after the death of a child". The Travolta's will never be the same again. Yes, you will see them smile again, but in their hearts there will always be tears. If you pray, in whatever form, pray for them. My heart goes out to this family. Not because they are the "Travolta's" but because they have taken a path in this life that is such a difficult road. My prayers and thoughts are with them all.

January 5, 2009 / 13:17

Lesley

Nonsense. We now know Jett Travolta was taking a drug called Depakote, a strong anti-seizure medication. There have been reports Travolta refused to give his son anti-seizure meds because of Scientology but those stories are not true.
http://www.tmz.com/2009/01/05/john-travoltas-son-meds-ultimately-did-harm/

Also, there is a statement of the Church of Scientology now:
http://www.bignews.biz/?id=791879&keys=scientology-medicine-illness-seizure

January 5, 2009 / 14:56

George

Scientology was created by a lunatic who was only interested in money. How can you accept each "new wave" of teachings in the world? Jesus is the only way to eternal life.

January 5, 2009 / 16:26

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Mike: How does this post rank VS your top ten posts with the most comments for 2008?

George: You are not as scary but just as close-minded as anyone suggesting their is one 'Way'.

January 5, 2009 / 18:29

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

&^%$! I meant THERE.

Sorry, English majors must correct these things.

Carry on

January 5, 2009 / 18:30

Dee

Jason
Your focus is where exactly?
There are discussion board that cater to those who are anal-retentive. Google INFP!

January 5, 2009 / 18:46

Dee

Jason.. I gave you the wrong MBTI. Spank me! (lol)
Google INTJ and go from there.

January 5, 2009 / 18:51

Toronto Mike

For the curious, Saturday was the 2nd busiest day in the history of this site, and 95% of the traffic was to this entry.

January 5, 2009 / 19:25

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Dee: the last time I checked there was an entire post devoted to your bad grammar. (I think that was you Miss Could Care Less, right?)

This is now off-topic, come harass me at my own blog or send me an e-mail about how you wish I would spank you.

January 5, 2009 / 19:26


Amber

What’s this? We've got new folks…....

Howdy George,
If you don’t mind, I'd like to dissect your last comment. First of all, I really admire most of the material in your last post. You are obviously a spiritual person that has an undeniable passion for Christ. However, I'm going to attack…..Ahem…I mean try to makes sense of, just a few of the radical remarks you’ve made.

First of all, here are a few important dates to ponder....

563 BCE Siddhartha Gautama, founder of the Buddhist religion, is born in Nepal, 12 years before the birth of Confucius in China. Approx. 30 CE Christ dies of crucifixion. Now, keeping those dates in the back of your mind at all times....Now it’s time for the break down……

First, you stated "Jesus is the ONLY way to eternal life." So, it would be safe to say that you’re a firm believer in absolutes….? Also, what does eternal life mean to you exactly? I’m going to take a stab at this and say eternal life means “happiness” to you….awe….aka Heaven! But, you could also be referring to the concept of Reincarnation….? However, I highly doubt this, at least not in the full sense of the word. You merely believe that the spirit goes on to a place where there is pearly gates and puffy clouds; not the concept that you might be so fortunate to possess a new body in your next life and try this thing called life all over again.

I bet you didn't know that the concept of Reincarnation was once in that Bible that you grasp so tightly….? Yep this is a fact. However, someone that worked on the Bible’s editing team, up and decided a few hundred years back to trim a little fat off the scriptures and omitted that concept....let's just say it wasn't popular at that time.

You also insinuated that Scientology was a so called “New Wave” teaching in the face of religion. This leads me to believe that you also support a little thing called “Original Thought.” Is this safe to say as well Georgie? Can I call you Georgie? Riddle me this Georgie……Exactly how many times has your so called “Bible” been revised, translated and dismembered over the years? Now, do you own the Old Testament or the newer version 2.0 aka the New Testament? I know the New Testament is supposed to be a lot more “clear.” Well, isn’t that is interesting……. it has been revised….most likely to move ahead with the times.

Do you still have those dates in your head that I provided you with earlier? Take a look back if you need to. Good. Now, do you suppose that the “three wise men” of the East, including Lao Tzu, Buddha, and Confucius.....sat around and smoked their peace pipes while burning some incense, and said “Well, we have some great ideas here guys….however, we will need to wait around at least another five hundred years until our Savior Jesus Christ is born somewhere in a manger in a little place called Bethlehem...before we can make any real progress."

Do you see where I’m going here Georgie…? This is just plain ignorant, don't you think? Please think before you open your mouth again.

Amen!

PS Do you also believe in fairies?

January 5, 2009 / 19:58

Maria Connor

You don't have to be a genius or have a MD behind your name to recgonize Autism. I believe John Travolta's brother was right about Jetts condition. John Travolta and Kelly Preston should have not denied his condition. They should be marching right by Jenny McCarthy and Jim Careys side at Capitol Hill"Green Our Vaccines" . Kelly is right about the chemicals , but not so much hosehold. The chemicals she should be looking into that are toxic are in the vaccines that get absorbed into the body. Jenny is fighting back and so should John Travola and Kelly Preston. If you sprinkle these chemicals into your child cereal in the morning such as aluminum, Thimerosal( mercury)Heavy metals, Famaldhide, Antifreeze, antibotics, hormone, etc. What do you think might happen?

1)You would probably have CPS knocking on your door.
2)The child would possibly get mercury poisoning, brain damage.
3)possible death

The FDA is legally responsible for regulating the pharmaceutical industry to ensure that the drugs and vaccines are safe. Why are the drug comapnies allowed to put these dangerous chemicals in the vaccines that are causing so many neurological disorders in our children such as ADHD, Autism , Auto immune disease etc.

These parents are not responsible the drug companies, the FDA and the Govt should be responsible for Jetts death. People please protect your children. if you don't , don't expect the FDA too.

January 5, 2009 / 21:08

Amber

Great points Maria! I have to say that I agree with most everything you've posted.

January 5, 2009 / 21:57

KD Mom

As the mother of son with kawasaki i know how heart wrenching and incredibly trying it can be to go through, but i think it is very important that a child with kawasaki get the correct treatment, which is a plasma treatment full of antibodies.... and then the child must be on a high dose of adult asprin to prevent heart attacks and other potential and fatal effects to the heart. Not the herbal detoxifying treatments that the scientology religion would have people belive in. And while i sympathize dearly with the Travolta family, i think when it comes to your child, anything and I mean ANYTHING should be done to ensure their health and safety. Also, not all children who get kawasaki have been exposed to carpet cleaners and chemicals, so i don't think they can definitely say that is the cause. What a sad loss for this family ... RIP Jett

January 5, 2009 / 23:19

Jaisne Blue Sexton

Amber, you keep saying good-bye, but you never leave. always trying to have the last word. you're not convincing anyone with your ranting and raving. clearly you're a sick sad scientology plant.

January 5, 2009 / 23:25

TJ

Jett Travolta absolutely had Autism 100%. His Parents brain washed by Scientology which lead to complete denial
absolutely contributed to his death. Do not believe the "spin" by Tarvolta s lawyer and Handler's Jett was not taking seizure meds no way and that is why this tragedy happened. Having a general knowledge of Travolta s denial of Jetts Autism I new upon hearing of the tragedy immediately he was probably not receiving proper
meds to control his seizures. I stated this to friends at a dinner party that evening. Its obvious to me I wasn t the only person thinking this was the case. Scientology is a Cult. It blows my mind the ignorance in this world! My heart goes out to the Travolta s and I hope I m wrong about the Meds. I hope they rethink this Cult they are in and find peace in there life.

January 5, 2009 / 23:36

El Diablo

I think Amber doesn't like me!

And even after I addressed her by name (or "name"...you know, whatever...) and said all those nice things about how intellectually superior she was and all that.

You know, Amber, I *really* thought you were all down with the philosophizing and whatnot! All about the intellectual biffo, the battle of wits...but you totally ignore my invitation to work out the ol' gray matter with me, and skip straight to someone who already agrees with you.

Now as a philosopher, you must surely know there's nothing to be gained in that!

I'm very disappointed.

Although, I'm less disappointed if I pretend that you *would* engage in productive debate under normal circumstances, but unfortunately your beloved puppy was recently run over by a carpet cleaning van...possibly driven by Hitler's ghost, or the CEO of Pfizer or Ely Lily or whatever...so you're obviously looking for solidarity and comfort from your fellow Internetians.

As such, I extend my deepest sympathy. I know how much you loved that puppy, and whatever you need to do to get through this difficult time is alright by me.

January 6, 2009 / 00:14

Amber

Hello El Diablo,

Actually quite the contrary is true......I sent you two posts now but for some reason they went to Mike Toronto’s "Must approve a comment team" so therefore that would render them out of my hands! Why don’t you start whining to Mike about checking his emails and approving his comments? Until then, I shall try to post again……

January 6, 2009 / 03:46

Anonymous

El Diablo,

Let’s see here………

I would have initially pegged you for either an English or Poetry major given your last post; not a philosopher by any standard. However, I’ll go ahead and give you 10 points for your time and astounding articulation. However, your speech was nothing short of a long drawn out dramatization. Don’t you think El D? You are excellent with your thesaurus and synonyms by the way! But let’s not detour from the subject at hand.

Pondering………But where to begin……?

Continued on next post.....

January 6, 2009 / 03:54

Amber

El Diablo,
Let’s see here………
I would have initially pegged you for either an English or Poetry major given your last post; not a philosopher by any standard. However, I’ll go ahead and give you 10 points for your time and astounding articulation. However, your speech was nothing short of a long drawn out dramatization. Don’t you think El D? You are excellent with your thesaurus and synonyms by the way! But let’s not detour from the subject at hand.

Pondering………But where to begin……?

Continued on next post....

January 6, 2009 / 03:57

Amber

Cont...

I’ve got it. First, let me set the record straight, I don’t wear thick glasses. I actually have perfect vision from an optometrist’s point of view and I do not own a cat. I also do not claim to be “all knowing” nor do I claim to possess some “higher” knowledge compared to the other bloggers on this site. I’ve just studied a lot over the years……read some here, took some classes there, even finished a few degrees, but all that is irrelevant in the scope of life. Don’t you think?

January 6, 2009 / 03:58

Amber

Cont....

Your immediate classification describing Scientology as a mere cult leads me to believe you are not an independent thinker at all but merely a clone on this site.

January 6, 2009 / 04:09

Amber

Cont....If you are not such a person and you can prove your statements…..let them be heard. You also express that you are “well educated” in philosophy, science and history. Congratulations….do you want a cookie? You are merely one in a million with such qualifications. However, this does not qualify you as an “expert” by any means! Provide me with some basic information, specifically concerning why you believe Scientology is a cult and we shall continue this debate. Until then…..your fancy eloquent words may have worked for the rest of the so-called bloggers on this site but you do not intimidate me. Now let’s pick that brain of yours sweetheart!

January 6, 2009 / 04:10

Amber

Toronto Mike.....

For some odd reason my posts are having a few problems going through....? Could this possibly be because I'm composing them from Europe?

January 6, 2009 / 04:18

Amber

It seems like perhaps there is a problem with my IP address or possibly the ISP....? Let me know.

January 6, 2009 / 04:20

amb

El Diablo,
Let’s see here………
I would have initially pegged you for either an English or Poetry major given your last post; not a philosopher by any standard. However, I’ll go ahead and give you 10 points for your time and astounding articulation. However, your speech was nothing short of a long drawn out dramatization. Don’t you think El D? You are excellent with your thesaurus and synonyms by the way! But let’s not detour from the subject at hand.
Pondering………But where to begin……?
I’ve got it. First, let me set the record straight, I don’t wear thick glasses. I actually have perfect vision from an optometrist’s point of view and I do not own a cat. I also do not claim to be “all knowing” nor do I claim to possess some “higher” knowledge compared to the other bloggers on this site. I’ve just studied a lot over the years……read some here, took some classes there, even finished a few degrees, but all that is irrelevant in the scope of life. Don’t you think? I am not the degrees that I hold, they do not define me; rather I am just a spiritual being, possessing my own basic personality, trapped in this physical body, looking for the meaning of life. Aren’t you just the same friend or shall I say possibly foe?
Moving forward……
Your immediate classification describing Scientology as a mere cult leads me to believe you are not an independent thinker at all but merely a clone on this site. If you are not such a person and you can prove your statements…..let them be heard. You also express that you are “well educated” in philosophy, science and history. Congratulations….do you want a cookie? You are merely one in a million with such qualifications. However, this does not qualify you as an “expert” by any means! Provide me with some basic information, specifically concerning why you believe Scientology is a cult and we shall continue this debate. Until then…..your fancy eloquent words may have worked for the rest of the so-called bloggers on this site but you do not intimidate me. Now let’s pick that brain of yours sweetheart!

January 6, 2009 / 04:24

Amber

I'm not having any luck.....perhaps it is the time zone.....figures you damn Canadians!

LOL.

:)

January 6, 2009 / 04:25

El Diablo

Okay this is a bit all over the place…but I’ll do my best:

"I also do not claim to be “all knowing” nor do I claim to possess some “higher” knowledge compared to the other bloggers on this site"

Good to know, but see here you wrote:

“Jason,
It is blatantly obvious that you do not know a thing about Scientology, religion or even basic philosophy for that matter. Scientology is an applied religious philosophy based on the teachings of the great L. Ron Hubbard.”

From this I have made the *assumption* (and quite explicitly labeled it as such), that you have some background knowledge – be it formal or otherwise – in matters of philosophy…and I suppose I should properly add “theology”…but anyway, your belittlement of Jason is quite clearly based upon the premise that you are MORE knowledgeable than Jason on matters of “Scientology, religion [and] basic philosophy”, hence are qualified to assess his proficiency, or lack of, in these areas. I mean, how can one assess that someone is ignorant of a subject if they themselves are ignorant? Not very bloody well, one might say! See what I did? I took the subtext of your comment to Jason, and distilled and exaggerated it. Some might say I’m preparing the ground for a straw-man argument. Some might say “what the fuck is a straw-man argument?” None the less, I thought it was funny…and being the ultimate arbiter of all that is rib-tickling and chuckle-worthy, I am totally qualified to make that call! Oh yeah!

“Congratulations….do you want a cookie?”

Oooh, I like cookies. Sure, if they’re on offer!

“You are excellent with your thesaurus and synonyms by the way.”

Gosh! I’d say thank-you, only I don’t actually own a thesaurus. My mum gave me this big-arse dictionary for Christmas one year, but it’s not like I use it to find words, to prompt my fellow netizens to marvel at my verbosity! It really only gets cracked out when we’re sitting in the lounge-room away from the computers and get stuck on the crossword. But you may have noticed that I do like to be accurate…and when I *know* there’s a word that can most accurately convey whatever it is I’m trying to say, I just HAVE TO remember it. Man, I always go a bit batty when I can think of all the words that are semantically *near* the word I’m looking for, but can’t for the life of me remember it. And then I always remember at an inopportune time, like when I’m in the shower, or rushing out the house.

January 6, 2009 / 07:15

El Diablo

"Your fancy eloquent words may have worked for the rest of the so-called bloggers on this..."

I know. I talk like I’m writing an essay. And I type like I talk. But to be honest, I don’t know what 'work', my "fancy eloquent words" (and isn’t 'fancy' and 'eloquent' right next to one another a tad, redundant? Oh well! I digress...) were meant to be doing. This is how I talk, and I’m not going to be all "Oh I’m only gonna use little words because all the other people on the internets will think I’m trying to act all superior or whatever…and then they won’t like me. Waaaah". And what do you mean "so-called" bloggers? I mean, no matter what you think of the quality, this is very much a 'web-log' or 'blog' if you will, and the author by extension is a 'blogger' by virtue of authoring said 'web-log'. Anyhoo...

“…but you do not intimidate me.”

That’s good. Because that ain’t my aim!

But on to the more serious business:

“[Scientology] meets all the requirements for a religion.”

Now this is a funny one because “religion” can be a rather nebulous word. If you have a particular criteria in mind, I'd love to see it! Until then, I can't really comment because I have absolutely no idea the criteria against which you judge something to be a religion or not. I personally like to draw the line between a “system of beliefs”/ “spiritual beliefs” / “philosophy” / “metaphysics”, etc…, and those institutions through which a given system of belief is manifested (often, although not necessarily). And tend to think of BOTH being necessary preconditions for considering something a 'religion'. That being said, (Aussie Rules) Football and especially Collingwood fandom is considered a religion by some down here! So, I ask...How broad are we going here?

Now, I will be quite clear here. I don’t personally go in for scientology, but as far as the “Free Zone” scientologists go...power to them! I have no intention of getting into a flame war about what religion or belief is right, and which is wrong. That’s a personal decision we should all be able to make FREELY. What I do have issues with is “The Church of Scientology”, which seems to be less of a vehicle for delivering a scientologist philosophy, but rather uses scientology-philosophy as a vehicle for it’s own existence/expansion.

Statements like this one the fabulous L.Ron to a writers convention, like, 4 years before he started CoS, tend to raise my eyebrow:

"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars he should start his own religion."

If that doesn’t tip you off, it might be interesting in doing a little digging at how the “Church”, has morphed from a psychiatry alternative, to a philosophy, to a religion…and back again…and forward again…and back again. I also find myself wondering if *TAX-EXEMPTION FOR RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS*, had anything to do with this? On what grounds do you defend its position as a religion, as opposed to a philosophy or some kind of “self-help” course? Why should an institution be able to behave like a corporation and business in terms of running FOR PROFIT, while simultaneously receive the same benefits that truly not-for-profit organizations get on the basis of declaring themselves religions. Why not declare Jedi a religion? Goodness knows enough people put it on the census every year!

But religion or not, you do seem adverse to my personal conclusion that this INSTITUTION is indeed a cult. Go back and read my first post. While (if you didn’t already pick it up) it is dripping with sarcasm, albeit in jest and mainly for comedic value, you may still make out within that sea of unnecessary linguistic flourishes the blueprint for your ideal counterargument:

You can (a): Tell me why CoS does not meet the criteria for classifying a “dangerous cult”

Or (b): Tell me why those criteria are somehow flawed.

I know you’ve insinuated that I’m somehow lacking in critical reasoning skills, but on the contrary, I’ve been living and breathing this stuff for far too long and I have argument maps and conditional statements pretty much coming out my ears, my head is so chocked full of them.

Now, I’ve already written an essay here, and this could balloon out to a thesis if I were to completely compile all the little bits of evidence upon which I’ve come to my particular conclusion. Better still, you go back to my first post, and use those criteria as a starting point, so that can better focus my rebuttal and not waste the precious moments of all of our lives. ‘kay sweetie?

Peace out, peeps

January 6, 2009 / 07:43

Toronto Mike

Amber, to prevent comment spam, I prevent some comments from immediately publishing. These comments are held for moderation until I manually publish them.

A comment is moderated if it contains a banned word (not necessarily a swear, but a string found frequently in comment spam) or there are certain characteristics, like too many consonants in a row. I suspect you were doing this.

Since you're in Europe (yes people, Amber is in Europe!), while you were commenting I was sleeping.

You are welcome to comment on any and all entries on this site. You're the best thing since sliced bread.

January 6, 2009 / 09:09

Toronto Mike

And El Diablo, you're awesome too.

January 6, 2009 / 09:11

Mike from Lowville

....and remember....she has red hair. ;O)......and a bug up her ass!

January 6, 2009 / 10:10

Amber

Hello El Diablo. Your name is quite fitting by the way. However, perhaps in the future you should pick something that eludes foreshadowing and elicits more mystery. Just think of it as a little too much solute and not nearly enough solvent. Now of course, you don’t have to take my advice; but, you might just scare someone away with a name like that! However, perhaps that is your sole intention? I would also assume, given your diabolical like attitude that you like to play the role of the “Devil’s Advocate.” I have to admit, I myself like to dissect and dismember other posts but I prefer to do it with a lot less narrative and more action. Think of this as merely cutting through a sea of bullshit and getting to the real factual data at hand. Now with all that said, I will happily be a participant in your little game. However, I must warn you, if you are looking for some in-depth lesson on Scientology you will have to go directly to the source. I am not here to give you any spiritual guidance or free lessons. Nonetheless, you do have very “basic” questions and most of these can be found in previous posts of mine (please see above). Why don’t you take a gander back through these while I start tackling your comment “What I do have issues with is “The Church of Scientology”, which seems to be less of a vehicle for delivering a scientologist philosophy, but rather uses scientology-philosophy as a vehicle for its own existence/expansion.”

Sound good?

January 6, 2009 / 11:21

Amber

Mike was that last comment really necessary? Why don't you go and pop a second bowl of "Cajun kernels" and let the "big dogs" play for awhile....? You just might learn something.

January 6, 2009 / 11:29

Amber

El Diablo: “What I do have issues with is “The Church of Scientology”, which seems to be less of a vehicle for delivering a scientologist philosophy, but rather uses scientology-philosophy as a vehicle for its own existence/expansion.”

Response:

Now this is a very vague statement that lacks not only real substance but also sense. I think what you are trying to imply is that Scientology tech is less of a philosophical view point and more of a ploy for expansion of a pure monetary sense? Is this correct? Please help those with such a feeble mind compared to yours oh High Priestess......

January 6, 2009 / 11:48

Amber

Next……

El Diablo: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars he should start his own religion."

Response:

First, may I ask where you got this quote? WARNING: Need I remind you…..be very, very careful that you do not pick and choose random statements from someone’s own body of work. You don’t want to come across as one of those “morons” that cuts and pastes a few sentences to support their own malicious cause. My guess is that this was deliberately taken out of context for your own advantage? Look deeper now….What do you see? I see a bit of sarcasm in this quote: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars he should start his own religion." Don’t you think El D? You should be ashamed of yourself for coming across so cool, collect and sarcastic; yet need I say also hypocritical? Cannot others be sarcastic in their statements without you automatically jumping to the conclusion that this should be taken literally? Come on now. You should know better than that. Have you ever been to Rome dear? How about the smallest country in the world aka Vatican City? If so, what did you see? I bet it was a lot of the material world and not much spiritual, eh?

What do you think smart girl……? Do you get me or do I have to explain the obvious?

January 6, 2009 / 12:29

Amber

El Diablo: “If that doesn’t tip you off, it might be interesting in doing a little digging at how the “Church”, has morphed from a psychiatry alternative, to a philosophy, to a religion…and back again…and forward again…and back again. I also find myself wondering if *TAX-EXEMPTION FOR RELIGIOUS INSTITUTIONS*, had anything to do with this?“

Response:

This one again is way too easy for me. I should start charging you an “enlightenment fee.”

First of all, there are two main divisions that encompass the religion of Scientology. The first is Dianetics (meaning through the mind) and the other is Scientology (meaning knowing how to know). There was no morphing involved, as you called it! Think of it like this: If you look long enough at something, it is liable to look back. Translation, while LRH was studying the mind he stumbled upon the axiom that man is a spiritual being and not merely a reactive animal, as the psychiatry quacks like to think. As far as this qualifying as a religion, it recognizes that man is a spiritual being just like any other religion. I shouldn’t have to convince you of this…..Obviously this was granted by the governments and it is a law in numerous countries throughout the world. If you want to dispute this, write your Congressman. I shouldn't have to explain this to you. I also shouldn’t have to explain to you why and how Scientology is a philosophy. That is just plain common sense. Do your own research on that one. My arm is already getting carpal tunnel from just explaining the other simple facts that you could have easily researched yourself. As far as being in a “Tax exempt” status, this is a wonderful service for all of us "brain-washed alien loving" Scientologists don’t you think? LOL. In short, nothing in this life is free and not every service rendered at the church of Scientology costs money. This is yet another malicious lie! If you must, think of our donations as merely tithing like any other religious institution. However, I can't say that I've ever spent even 10% of my gross income, however, I bet a lot of Christians can....

January 6, 2009 / 12:59

Amber

El Diablo: On what grounds do you defend its position as a religion, as opposed to a philosophy or some kind of “self-help” course? Why should an institution be able to behave like a corporation and business in terms of running FOR PROFIT, while simultaneously receive the same benefits that truly not-for-profit organizations get on the basis of declaring themselves religions?

Response:

LOL. I must say you like going in circles little woman! Again, I defend it as a religion because it IS a recognized religion. Like I said before, write your Congressman or whomever you like and pitch a bitch on their ear, not on mine. Philosophy is religion and religion is philosophy….which came first the chicken or the egg? As far as self-help goes, besides you might need some; isn’t all religion and philosophy self-help? This is too blatantly obvious now. I’m nearly through explaining trivial concepts to you and giving you a crash course in Scientology.

Anymore questions sweetie pie?

January 6, 2009 / 13:10

Dee

Jason

My grammar is not nearly as bad as my inability to deceiver a good thing from not. I will write to you on your discussion board.

January 6, 2009 / 14:18

elvis

This is the greatest thing ever...I love Crazy Amber.

January 6, 2009 / 14:23

Dee

As for all those who judge a person by their grammar. There is a name for you. You are as important as I for you wouldn't be anything without me. So go on those who learn nothing. Go on and be something that means nothing to no one.

January 6, 2009 / 15:21

Amber

Elvis-

As always you are such a delight to correspond back and forth with. You’re always stopping in to drop off one of your rudimentary comments and then disappearing into thin air again. However, I’m awful sorry that you neglected to send a link to one of your many favorite websites this time…..

January 6, 2009 / 17:17

Mirah

I believe from photos and videos i saw that he did have autism.

I also read that they stopped giving him his seizure meds because they weren't working. HUH?

I think the autopsy was a far too quick cover up for negligence.

As a parent who lost a child... you don't seek to cover up anything. You want ANSWERS.

January 6, 2009 / 18:30

El Diablo

Toronto Mike: Why thank-you! You're awesome too. And if the internet needs anything, it's more awesome people, so we're totally doing a public service by awesome-ing up the place!

Mike from Lowville: What? Red hair, but no glasses? That's too bad, 'cause they go together like Ra-ma la-ma la-ma ka ding a da ding de dong!

But now on to Ambuler!

"Perhaps...you should pick something that eludes foreshadowing and elicits more mystery...[Y]ou might just scare someone away with a name like that! However, perhaps that is your sole intention?"

Actually, it's a play on my actual name, with a nod to that episode of the Simpsons where Mr. Burns is entering a short film for Springfields film festival, and the non-union Mexican equialent to Steven Spielburg (Señor Spielburgo), hired as his director, says of Burns' request to compare himself to Oscar Schindler:

"Er, Schindler es bueno, Senor Burns es el diablo." :)

Also, he is described in Tito Puente's catchy hate-song as "El diablo con dinero", or "the devil with money". You can watch it here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=N9Z4Hl_GqWE

"I would also assume, given your diabolical like attitude that you like to play the role of the “Devil’s Advocate.” "

On the contrary, "Devil's Advocate" would imply that I'm mounting a particular argument, not because it's a genuine position I hold, but rather because I seek to oppose another person's view regardless of what it actually is. See, what you're doing here is questioning my motives. Which really isn't very sporting of you, ol' chap (or chappette, if that's more appropriate).

Also "attitude" is a very subjective term. So, if the crux of your counter argument is that I have ulterior motives, based on an assessment of my "attitude", you better start defining your terms more clearly, lest this descend (further?) into a matter of semantics. Sooo many tutorials...so many people...who would probably agree - or at least respectfully disagree - if they realized they were talking about the same thing in different ways...or different things in the same way. And that is like, sooo first year...

"I have to admit, I myself like to dissect and dismember other posts but I prefer to do it with a lot less narrative and more action."

If by "action" you mean, "Accusations that those not agreeing with me are OBVIOUSLY uninformed about scientology...but I'm not gonna provide any particular details, or specific rebuttals because you're obviously all too theta-riddled to understand", then I suppose you're right!

But it really is too bad that you deride the fine art of net-banter, because if that weedy, internet-porn-lovin' guy I once saw on Jerry Springer, who was totally getting hit upside the head by his skank, taught me anything, it is that:

*puts on Cletus the slackjawed jokel voice*

"The internet is for inter-tainment!"

"El Diablo: “What I do have issues with is “The Church of Scientology”, which seems to be less of a vehicle for delivering a scientologist philosophy, but rather uses scientology-philosophy as a vehicle for its own existence/expansion.”

Response:

Now this is a very vague statement that lacks not only real substance but also sense. I think what you are trying to imply is that Scientology tech is less of a philosophical view point and more of a ploy for expansion of a pure monetary sense? Is this correct? Please help those with such a feeble mind compared to yours oh High Priestess...

Um, maybe I'm not making myself clear. I made the very deliberate choice not to deride the CoS-philosophy, or the 'tech' (which I'm taking to mean the way in which the philosophy is applied) specifically. From the few primary docs available to non-scientologists (bless their copyright-lovin' litigious souls!) and the testimony of ex-sci's, I don't feel it completely void of merit, per se...maybe a tad plagiariffic, but that's a totally different matter.

That is why I carefully delineated between the philosophical and institutional, because my criticisms are clearly leveled at the latter. The matter of 'tech' is an interesting one, because it is not so ubiquitous that I can make any one statement on it's use. I will say that the CoS INSTUTUTION, would appear, from the numerous complaints leveled against it by former members, to use TECH (at least sometimes) in a manner counter to their own philosophy...the most disturbing of allegations tend to involve those higher-up in the food chain, and I can see why those who initially felt that Scientology benefited them while at the lower levels, could come to be disillusioned by the behavior of their fellow Scientologist and by extension with the INSTITUTION which claims to have a monopoly on Scientology-philosophy AND tech.

I do, however, feel compelled to take objection at the High-Priestess part. Being what is best termed an 'ideological anarchist', I don't actually believe that one person has more inherit worth than another. But if you must find some kind of archetype to label me by, how about some kind of royal jester? But you must promise to imagine me as wearing hilariously oversized shoes, in garish colors, with bells on them!

"Next...

El Diablo: "Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars he should start his own religion."

Response:

First, may I ask where you got this quote?

...My guess is that this was deliberately taken out of context for your own advantage?

Isn't it like, ALL OVER, the internets? Isn't it's attribution to L.Ron, completely uncontroversial? I'm not sure if I'll be able to hunt down a transcript from a frickin' writers convention held in 1950, but really I don't need to, because the onus is now on you to either demonstrate that it was taken out of context (or at least some evidence to suggest it may have been), or failing that at least show that it is POSSIBLE to be taken out of context, and that this has some RELEVANCE to the (what I thought was a self-evident) point at hand. For me, it is an indication of L.Ron's AWARENESS of religion as a preferred vehicle from which to turn a profit from writing. And considering how difficult it is to make a living from writing, I can see why such a comment would be made.

It's a quote that is really only salient (rather than "like, duuuh") in light of subsequent happenings. "Dianetics" was not initially marketed as a religious text and only later became one when the CoS pushed to be recognized as a bona fide religion...and not without controversy, mind you. Moreover, that self-categorization as a religion was moved by the same person (and subsequently, people) who authored the texts. Can anyone say, "Conflict of interest, much?"

So, if the CoS is NOT at it's core, a profit generating mechanism, I implore you to answer me these questions three!

Question the first:

If it weren't really about making a profit, why not sell the material at cost?

Why go all litigious on the Free-Zoners?

Why all the confidentiality surrounding the texts?


...more to come after I feed the cats and make myself another coffee...and finish writing the next bit.

January 6, 2009 / 19:19

elvis

I'm right here - I haven't disappeared at all.

I'm a delight? Wait a minute - are you my Ma? MA?! Get off this website. The interweb is for cool people only.

January 6, 2009 / 19:58

Toronto Mike

The mainstream press is starting to catch up. This is an AP article entitled Death of Travolta's Son Raises Medical Questions and it's dated today.

Millions of children and adults have seizures in the United States, but dying from one is rare. That only adds to the confusion and mystery surrounding the life and death of Jett Travolta, the 16-year-old son of actors John Travolta and Kelly Preston.

The death certificate lists a seizure as the cause of death, according to an undertaker in the Bahamas, where the boy died Friday. Family representatives and lawyers declined requests Tuesday for more information, fueling speculation that has swirled for years about the boy's health.

A Travolta attorney said the teen had a history of seizures, and John Travolta has said his son was successfully treated when he was 2 for a rare disease called Kawasaki syndrome, which can lead to heart disease and related problems.

Medical specialists who did not treat the boy told The Associated Press on Tuesday that while Kawasaki syndrome is poorly understood, it's extremely unlikely the disease had anything to do with the teen's death.

Gossip magazines and blogs long have suggested the boy also had autism — a claim John Travolta denied. Autism is frequently accompanied by seizures that experts believe may stem from the same brain abnormalities that cause the developmental disorder.

Dr. Michael Kohrman, a University of Chicago pediatric neurologist, said up to one-third of children with autism have some sort of seizure disorder.

Still, there are dozens of other causes of seizures. Recurrent seizures are sometimes called epilepsy and are caused by abnormal electrical activity in the brain. These affect more than 3 million Americans.

Mild seizures can be barely noticeable; severe ones can cause convulsing and loss of consciousness.

"Sudden death in epilepsy is not an unheard-of phenomenon," said Dr. Bruce Cohen, a staff neurologist at the Cleveland Clinic.

It can happen with seizures lasting more than 15 or 20 minutes, typically when medicine stops working or if patients quit taking medicine, Cohen said. One way death occurs in these cases is respiratory muscles weaken from prolonged convulsions and the patient stops breathing, he explained.

More rarely, he said, about one in 1,000 epileptics die each year from a condition doctors call "sudep," or a sudden unexplained death that typically occurs with no sign of a seizure. Whether this happened to Jett Travolta or whether autopsy officials in the Bahamas know that term is uncertain.

"We're dealing with a massive lack of information," Cohen said.

Michael Ossi, an attorney for the Travoltas, and Samantha Mast, a Travolta publicist, told the AP by e-mail that they would not discuss details of the boy's illness.

Jett Travolta's body was cremated, and the autopsy report has not been released.

The Travoltas have said little about their son's condition and his medical treatment over the years. The couple are Scientologists, followers of the controversial religion created by science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard.

The church is not commenting specifically on the Travolta case. But church policy is for members to seek a doctor for medical treatment of a physical condition, including taking any drugs prescribed.

"The bottom line is that Scientologists seek conventional medical treatment for medical conditions," said Tommy Davis, a spokesman for the Church of Scientology International in Los Angeles.

Kawasaki syndrome, the disease the family has said sickened Jett when he was a toddler, can cause inflammation in blood vessels and arteries. It typically features a persistent high fever accompanied by symptoms that can include bloodshot eyes; swelling in hands, feet and neck lymph nodes; a red rash on the arms and legs; and cracked, swollen lips.

Most cases occur in the first five years of life, and if treated promptly with aspirin and intravenous gamma globulin, children are essentially cured, said Dr. Cody Meissner, chief of pediatric infectious diseases at Tufts Medical Center in Boston.

While inflammation can sometimes lead to burst arteries or heart damage, Meissner said most children have no complications. And those who do would develop them soon after diagnosis — not several years later, Meissner said.

"If 10 years or more had gone by, it would be very unlikely that seizure activity could be attributed to Kawasaki disease," Meissner said.

Kelly Preston blamed household cleaners and fertilizers for the disease and said a detoxification program based on Scientology teachings helped improve his health, according to People magazine.

Meissner said there is scientific evidence linking professional-strength carpet cleaners with the disease.

Davis, the Scientology spokesman, acknowledged the detoxification program, but said its benefits are spiritual.

"Scientology is a religion," he said. "We deal with the spirit, and mental and spiritual factors that affect someone's happiness and well-being."

January 6, 2009 / 20:24

El Diablo

[N]eed I say [you are] also hypocritical? Cannot others be sarcastic in their statements without you automatically jumping to the conclusion that this should be taken literally?

So the charge here is:

(a) Citing this particular quote 'advantages' me in some way, but only if taken out of context.

(b) I am purposely taking as literal, that which I know to be sarcastic (although, I'd say 'tongue-in-cheek' is a better way of putting it)

How am I advantaged? I mean, other than furthering my argument, but I'm hardly gonna purposely put forward TERRIBLE ARGUMENTS which disadvantage my position now, am I? Do you suggest that I do, Amber dear? And if I did, would that not be unfairly advantaging you? That would leave YOU wide open to accusations of unfair advantage, and well, I couldn't in all good conscious do that to you!


"Have you ever been to Rome dear? How about the smallest country in the world aka Vatican City? If so, what did you see? I bet it was a lot of the material world and not much spiritual, eh?"

No arguments from me here. I don't much like the Catholic Church and feel that they've bastardized Christianity in order to maintain patriarchal power and exert unwarranted control over the lives of individuals and society more widely. And haven't you heard the saying "Two wrongs don't make a right."

Although I did hear a rumor that three lefts, might.

First of all, there are two main divisions that encompass the religion of Scientology. The first is Dianetics (meaning through the mind) and the other is Scientology (meaning knowing how to know).

There was no morphing involved.

Umm, riiiggghht...You do realize I'm talking about the labeling of the CoS, rather than any inherit properties it may have? It's harder to hit a moving target, don't you think?

While LRH was studying the mind he stumbled upon the axiom that man is a spiritual being and not merely a reactive animal.

An axiom is something that is both necessarily true and self-evident. The notion that man is essentially a "spiritual being" was popularized quite a few centuries ago by a fellow called Rene Descartes. You may have heard of him in passing. You know that saying "I think (or more accurately, 'I doubt') therefore I am"...which is a one-liner summing up the idea that if one doubts their own existence, there must be something that is doing the doubting which necessarily exists...blah blah blah...independent of matter whose existence is reasoned NOT to be necessary...God exists...(that's about the crux of it). This is a really, really old idea. Even older that Dianetics! But it's not without it's challenges. Only he used it to prove there was a god and that the universe is mechanistic, hence empty space is really invisible particles of 'ether', which push each other around...and how that creates the effect we commonly call "gravity". Oh, and it was based on a geocentric, Aristotelian construction of the universe. One of them funny little historical quirks that you can only really appreciate after a bit of background reading. You should totally look into it. But you'll need to do your own research, because I'm not your librarian.

...as the psychiatry quacks like to think.

Riiight. So, psychiatrists are quacks, eh? Why do you think that? Is it based on the CoS rejection of the field of psychiatry, even though their view of psychiatry (and psychology) is an absurd straw-man not even KINDA resembling what the field is like today? Why can the CoS revise it's doctrines and expect people to accept that it's past follies have been rectified, yet insist on portraying a version of psychiatry and psychology which in reality was long-since rejected? See, these particular fields are what we'd consider developing sciences, as compared to "the established sciences". As such many concepts that were 'cutting-edge' only a few decades ago have been superseded, or rejected, or expanded upon...So really, you're gonna have to let me know your SPECIFIC OBJECTIONS, because making sweeping statements to the effect that psychiatry is quackish with absolutely no indication of WHY you think that...well...it's just plain sloppy work!

As far as this qualifying as a religion, it recognizes that man is a spiritual being just like any other religion.

I shouldn’t have to convince you of this...

Okay, so that's your ONLY requirement for you to accept something as a religion? Because if that's really your stance...then, fantastic! I guess I can now write a few pages on my own personal reasons for believing human-kind is essentially a spiritual being and demand I be granted tax-exempt status, because it's just SOOO OBVIOUS, that my status as a religion is bone-fide, based on this alone.

Obviously this was granted by the governments and it is a law in numerous countries throughout the world.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah

um...sorry, I mean

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

'Oooh the GOVERNMENT says it's so, so it MUST be true!'

Omgosh, you are priceless!

If you want to dispute this, write your Congressman.

Actually, we have "members of parliament" over here. But you were close! I love sending them my various thoughts on various issues. Since they're actually in the process of reviewing the taxation system at the moment and will probably be taking submissions from the public during the committee phase, I'll probably hold off on this until I can better target my arguments in relation to particular legislation. Thanks for the reminder though.

I shouldn't have to explain this to you. I also shouldn’t have to explain to you why and how Scientology is a philosophy. That is just plain common sense. Do your own research on that one. My arm is already getting carpal tunnel from just explaining the other simple facts that you could have easily researched yourself.

You haven't actually explained much, nor provided me with any DETAIL. And I am a tad bewildered myself as to why you're treading the same ground when I'm not really debating the point on the philosophical aspects of 'Scientology'. You're kind of debating "OVER THERE", while those of us on planet earth are debating "OVER HERE". So really, either you're very confused or you just like complaining. Speaking of which, maybe YOU could ask your "church" very nicely to put their material into the public domain, if you're so adamant that others familiarize themselves with the details, yet are reluctant, or too carpal-tunnel afflicted to reiterate it personally. See? Everyone is happy then.

In short, nothing in this life is free and not every service rendered at the church of Scientology costs money.

Yes, but what is the markup? :)

This is yet another malicious lie!

Ooooh! "Malicious", that's a pretty hefty accusation there. And I believe that since you have published it publicly, you must now PROVE it...or retract it unreservedly, lest you be guilty of libel! :)

Did I miss anything???

Probably!

Oh well :)

BTW: I'll be waiting for that unreserved retraction.

January 6, 2009 / 20:53

Mirah

I believe from photos and videos i saw that he did have autism.

I also read that they stopped giving him his seizure meds because they weren't working. HUH?

I think the autopsy was a far too quick cover up for negligence.

As a parent who lost a child... you don't seek to cover up anything. You want ANSWERS.

January 6, 2009 / 20:58

El Diablo

Ooh thanks for the update Toronto Mike!

An interesting theory I heard floating around the interwebs was that the autism-like symptoms some are ascribing to the late Jett Travolta were actually the progressive result of ongoing seizures.

I don't think that's been picked up by the media though.

It was pretty obvious that Kawasaki syndrome contributed shit-all to his death. At least the media seems to be straightening out the basic medical assertions, even if the information black-hole prevents any real conclusions from being arrived at.

January 6, 2009 / 21:02

Amber

Question 1 -

El Diablo: “Why all the confidentiality surrounding the texts?”

Amber’s Response:

I’m unsure of what you deem “confidentiality” concerning the textbooks? There is nothing in Scientology that is confidential. This is again a malicious untruth! You have every right as does anyone else on this blog to walk into a Scientology Mission or Org today and get moving up the Bridge to Total Freedom. The “bridge” is indeed progressive……think gradient. For example, if you wanted to get a PhD in Theoretical Physics you would not start out with Quantum Mechanical Entropy; you would first take Fundamentals of Physics I, then Physics II, etc.. Thus, the lower courses lay your foundation. If I stuck you in an OT 8 slot you’d be lost in translation per se. Now, I’m uncertain if you are somehow confusing this concept with confidentiality. Please clarify? Nevertheless, I can promise you that you have the same inalienable rights and privileges as any so-called Scientology member.

Do you have any other questions pertaining to this concept El D?

January 6, 2009 / 21:06

El Diablo

So it would be cool for you - or one of your fellow CoS members to scan your material and put it online, yeah? Or maybe donate some to your local library

I mean, physics texts are freely available in public libraries, so if that's the analogy you're drawing, I don't see any reason why CoS texts shouldn't.

January 6, 2009 / 21:17

El Diablo

Also, quantum physics is cool. Not that L.Ron would know, because he really didn't believe in complex space...or differential calculus. Thought it was all nonsense. There's totally primary docs of that too. Hunt around, I'm sure you'll find them.

January 6, 2009 / 21:20

Randy

John and Kelly should be charged with MURDER. Period. It is that simple. Their beliefs in this cult called Scientology clearly implicates them in their child's death. I say put them both and this ridiculous cult on trial. They will easily be found guilty (especially by a bible belt Ocala, FL jury) That way we can lock them up and throw away the key. They are both fiendish individuals and are Murderers.

January 6, 2009 / 21:25

Randy

John and Kelly should be charged with MURDER. Period. It is that simple. Their beliefs in this cult called Scientology clearly implicates them in their child's death. I say put them both and this ridiculous cult on trial. They will easily be found guilty (especially by a bible belt Ocala, FL jury) That way we can lock them up and throw away the key. They are both fiendish individuals and are Murderers.

January 6, 2009 / 21:26

Amber

Question 2 -

El Diablo: “Why go all litigious on the Free-Zoners?”

Response:

This one is just too blatantly obvious, is it not El D…..? Do me a favor, save my arm and some typing time, and Google “Freezoners” for yourself. Now how reputable or even useful would three decades of precise research be if it were continually diluted, changed and altered?

Come on now! Please use your head along with it's contents.

Do you have any other questions pertaining to this concept El D?

January 6, 2009 / 21:42

Amber

Oh Randy Dear....

You come across as having much deeper issues than this one at hand. I don't think a blog is the right place for you. Please get some help for yourself and society!

January 6, 2009 / 21:50

El Diablo

Sorry, that one's not really moving me. I'm was raised Anglican...and while the historical roots of Anglicanism are *ahem* less than glowing, I'm glad that groups DID break in part from the Roman Catholic tradition and DID question the church's doctrine.

I think I read a net-comment to the effect that Free-Zoners are like Scientology's version of protestants...

And my reason for supporting them, despite not personally subscribing to their beliefs is much the same as it is for the reformation movement...which itself is not (and should not be) above criticism.

As I said earlier, I'm an ideological anarchist, and as such I believe we are all just people who must make up our own minds the best we can...and even clergy are not above human error. Nor higher-level Scientologists.

Next...!

January 6, 2009 / 21:51

El Diablo

Sorry "I'm was raised Anglican", was a typo...should read "I was raised Anglican".

Also, where might I find all these decades of research? I presume it has been published and is available in the public domain? :)

January 6, 2009 / 21:54

Jeff

My daughter died of a seizure even though she was medicated for seizure control.

January 6, 2009 / 22:08

Amber


El Diablo: "I mean, physics texts are freely available in public libraries, so if that's the analogy you're drawing, I don't see any reason why CoS texts shouldn't."

Response:

Clarification…….This analogy was geared more towards providing a basic understanding (so that “all” bloggers can rightfully understand) of the significance for a gradient. The same basic response that I provided you in question #2 is also why they are not readily available in public libraries. This is again to protect credibility and doctrine.

January 6, 2009 / 22:09

El Diablo

So you're saying that publishing said texts would undermine Scientology's credibility? :)

January 6, 2009 / 22:13

Amber

I'm sorry for your loss Jeff. I can't even imagine the pain of losing a child. You also brought to light an excellent point as well. I also agree that routine meds are not a "cure all" in every circumstance.

January 6, 2009 / 22:22

El Diablo

Jeff: I'm really sorry to hear that. I can't even imagine what it must be like to lose a child. I honestly want to convey my deepest sympathies to you and your family and my desire that anything flippant that is inevitably posted in relation to Jett Travolta's death won't be construed as a dismissive of the deeply tragic nature of losing a loved one.

January 6, 2009 / 22:28

Amber

Final Question -

El Diablo: “If it weren't really about making a profit, why not sell the material at cost?”

Response:

To be quite honest, I’ve never looked into what the material goes for at “cost” compared to this so-called “sale price.” I know that I've never been disappointed with any one of the services that I've received and money is nothing more than an exchange. I was always happy! Perhaps you need to inform me on this issue…..? I do know that being an active member does provide some perks but I’m uncertain of the exact extent.

January 6, 2009 / 22:29

Amber

Yes. If they are distorted of course; this is highly likely given society in its current state. Obviously, you would be able to utilize the material in its correct form but others I'm not so sure. You’d be surprised at the sheer number of suppressors in the world today. You come across as being a very able being however. Also, although Scientology is not a monotheistic religion; many feel their beliefs are threatened and will do anything in their power to undermine its sole purpose. This is ironically the same purpose that their religious doctrine teaches.

January 6, 2009 / 22:38

El Diablo

As always, wiki provides some pretty straight-forward numbers:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology_as_a_business#Costs

And why you might not be moved by the conclusion of this one (and I don't expect you to be either), it does suggest that initial prices are quite reasonable and arguably value for money, but this can spike dramatically as one moves up through the levels:

http://www.clambake.org/archive/books/tsos/sos-19.html#c8

And while we can drag up the issue of church tithings, the main difference is that salvation is not CONDITIONAL on that. I haven't heard of someone being denied religious instruction in any other church, because they weren't able to produce a specific amount of money.

January 6, 2009 / 22:48

Amber

El Diablo: Hahahahahahahahahahahahahah
um...sorry, I mean
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!'Oooh the GOVERNMENT says it's so, so it MUST be true!'

Response:

LOL. You are 100% correct on that comment. That is not what I meant exactly but I'll share in the laugh with you. It does come across as pretty ridiculous, eh? I'll be the first to tell you not to trust what the goverment says. I was gearing this more towards the fact that it is a reconginzed religion in numerous countries. The specific criteria each one uses is something I've never really looked into to be honest. However, your point made me laugh my ass off.

:)

January 6, 2009 / 22:55

Amber

I'll look into your figures tomorrow and check back! I've only been on course for 4 years now so I'm uncertain of the costs beyond what I've received. I've also since took a job in Europe so I've been out of the loop for awhile now. By the way....I'm not an OT or anything!

January 6, 2009 / 23:02

El Diablo

Yes. If they are distorted of course; this is highly likely given society in its current state.

Obviously, you would be able to utilize the material in its correct form but others I'm not so sure.


OMGosh, are we starting to agree with one another? Is this a kinder, gentler Amber I see? :)

But I digress...and ask...

By what standard should one be judged as "able" to utilize the material or not?

On what basis *should* we invoke the notion of hierarchy, and it's associate appeal to authority, as the basis of determining said judges?

If there is indeed institutional dysfunction can we really expect those indoctrinated WITHIN that institution to be able to detect said dysfunction?

If CoS doctrine can be traced back to axiomatic principles (necessary and self-evident), would false or misleading interpretations not be best determined by vigorous public debate both within and without Scientology?

If Scientology is indeed a religion, can we not postulate that it is properly an article of faith (as compared to logical proof, or conclusion based on empirical evidence) - Faith being something you hold even when you CAN'T determine it by logical or empirical means.

If faith is undermined by some other argument, then one doesn't really have faith in that thing, right? And one would think that if Scientology is truly working for a person, they'd be secure enough in their own beliefs to not really be concerned about what others thought about it.

January 6, 2009 / 23:06

El Diablo

And yes, I should do other things with my day right now, but I'm sure we've given each other plenty of food for thought.

January 6, 2009 / 23:07

El Diablo

Oh and I apologize for not noticing that post about the government saying it's true...etc, etc...I think I was writing that other post at the time...

But you do realize that now you get to join my exclusive club of people who say daft things and shortly thereafter have a good chuckle at the daftitude?

For my longstanding devotion to this cause, I am currently president! :D

(But we DO hold democratic elections each quarter if you're interested.)

:)

January 7, 2009 / 00:15

El hefe del fumar

Scientology is very scary to me. To think that they feel they have the power and knowledge to make decesions about autisim with no medical backround is frightening. To think that Idiots like John Travolta and Tom Cruise belief them is scary but not surprising. Scientology is a farce but, Autisim is the real thing. Honor your children and keep them away from the COS

January 7, 2009 / 15:54

Amber

LOL. I've also had two years of Spanish. Don't you know that smoking is worse for your health than Scientology del fumar?

***************************
Scientology does not make "decesions" or more commonly known as decisions about autism or anything else for that matter. They believe in a little thing called self-determinism, have you heard of it...? Well it means that the actions of a self are determined by itself. No brainwashing, chanting, or cyanide-laced grape flavored Kool-Aid involved.

Although I heard the orange flavor is nice.....

January 7, 2009 / 16:59

Amber

El Diablo: "If there is indeed institutional dysfunction can we really expect those indoctrinated WITHIN that institution to be able to detect said dysfunction?"

Response:

Yes. Think of it like this...What is true for you is what you've experienced to be true. There is no better way of putting it! If that doesn't convince you....I'm also highly allergic to bullshit. I break out in hives; it isn't pretty.

I wonder if it is psychosomatic....?

;)

January 7, 2009 / 17:47

El Diablo

*sigh*

Okay, Amber. I asked you a series of sensible questions, and you've provided "answers" that are totally non sequitur.

"What is true for you is what you've experienced to be true."

Ummm...riiiggghhht. What does epistemic relativism have to do with the price of fish?

Think of it like this:

El Diablo: "Amber, what is the square root of 4?"

Amber: "Pineapple!"

And I really can't be any clearer than that.

January 7, 2009 / 18:35

Amber

"Okay, Amber. I asked you a series of sensible questions, and you've provided "answers" that are totally non sequitur."

How does this not follow exactly?

By the way.....OUCH!
Non sequitur....
I'm doing my best here. I feel like we are in a perpetual spin...hopefully not leading to a downward spiral!

What else do you need? I didn't think that I was speaking in riddles......

January 7, 2009 / 19:08

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Wow, Randy wants to try the entire cult. Well, although prisons are big business (as is Scientology) I just don't think there's enough room in our prisons.

Then again, GWB has been pardoning a few people lately.

Anyway... i'm out... peace love and SAVE SURI

January 7, 2009 / 19:17

Amber

Scientology is an applied religious philosophy. It is religious because it deals with the spirit and philosophical because it uses basic reason.

It is not faith-based...What is true for you is what you've experienced to be true. It is a science in a nutshell....it is a science that uses reason, research and recongnizes the spirit. The spirit exists on the premise that energy cannot be created or destroyed only transferred (First Law of Thermodynamics).

January 7, 2009 / 19:29

El Diablo

"If there is indeed institutional dysfunction can we really expect those indoctrinated WITHIN that institution to be able to detect said dysfunction?"

And you say "Yes".

Now, when I look back at that question, I have to admit I'd probably say "yes" too.

I mean, given that we live in "post modernity" these days where the flow of information is far freer than it's ever been, where people's self-identity is far more fluid than it's ever been and the pressure to retain the doctrine one was brought up in, or has identified with for some significant period of time, has been seriously diminished.

Hence, the most sensible answer would probably have been to take that population (of people who later reject whatever doctrine they were raised in) and look for examples where that was prompted by disillusionment with a given institution based on internal dysfunction.

What I didn't expect (although, in retrospect, perhaps I should have), was simply a broad tautological statement about the nature of personal truth. Now, if that does tie in to your answer, it was NOT well explicated...and believe me, I sat here for a good while trying to find a way to connect it to the question and give some kind of reasoned reply.

And I don't particularly want to be nasty. In fact, if you look back at our postings, you may realize that I'm being VERY GENEROUS, choosing to laugh off accusations of ulterior motives, or supposed deficits in my critical reasoning skills, or circularity in my arguments...and selecting your more coherent points to debate further.

Furthermore, while I wish it were, my patience is not infinite, and it's further strained when I have someone putting forward really sloppy arguments...or rather broad statements that ANYONE would struggle to connect to the question at hand...while implying that anyone who doesn't see the connection has something wrong with them.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm assuming you feel those who do not see your point of view, or remain unmoved by your arguments/statements, do so, not because they find your reasoning faulty, but because they are somehow deficient in basic comprehension.

And again, it's not my intention to insult or offend you...but it's very difficult to provide a serious reply to the kinds of statements you've made. That being said, I will make every effort not to let my own frustration leak out in any further posts. I do understand that you're conveying what it is you believe in the best way you know how.

January 7, 2009 / 19:57

Amber

El Diablo:

Amber's Logic:
Think of it like this...using letters to represent units of time. In ascending order A-Z.

Ultimate Goal: Heaven, Eternal happiness, Immortality, Infinity

A=Start/Birth
Z=End/Ultimate Goal

Buddhism
A-F-J-Q-T-V-Z

Islam
A-C-E-H-J-M-O-R-T-V-W-Y-Z

Christianity
A-B-C-D-E-F-G-H-I-J-K.....Z

Hinduism
A-N-R-T-V-W-Z

Scientology
A-N-Z

*This is just a very rough example. The purpose is that they all have the same fundamental goal or purpose yet some may take longer as compared to others to reach the end goal. This is where LRH comes in.....he studied the fundamental basics of all major religions and made a shortcut per se to the end goal.

I also like to think of this as a careless hand spilled a million pieces to a large jig-saw puzzle....it lay scattered around the universe....the Greeks put whole sections together, while others put in mere pieces…….finally with the application of Scientology tech all the sections came together and we're closer to the answers we were seeking!

Did this make sense or do you find me completely off in my own little world....?

January 7, 2009 / 20:02

El Diablo

"It is not faith-based...What is true for you is what you've experienced to be true.

Then it's not a religion.

It is a science in a nutshell....it is a science that uses reason, research and recongnizes [sic] the spirit

Look, scientology DOES NOT publish any of it's reasearch and it's EXTREMELY DOUBTFUL that any of it adheres to a valid scientific method. If this research were published, then we could all look at it and make up our mind about it. But simply asserting that research has been done and quoting the results without providing any evidence to show how those results are arrived at means that IT WILL NOT, AND CANNOT be considered actual scientific research.

Straight off the bat, we have an example of bad science:

The "personality test" - many people's first experience of Scientology - is TOTALLY INCAPABLE of providing statistically significant results on any of the factors it claims to measure. And before you imply I'm just regurgitating some malicious untruth, I'll say that I've looked at the test...all 200 questions...and the ideal-answer keys...and there are SOOO many violations experimental design, it's not funny. Not to mention there is NO evidence that it has retest reliability.

If anyone can provide evidence to the contrary I would be VERY INTERESTED! So the challenge is out there for anyone wanting to defend Scientology's scientific record.

January 7, 2009 / 20:07

Amber

"Not to mention there is NO evidence that it has retest reliability."

The personality test is aimed more at Dianetics (through the mind), this deals with the reactive mind...I can explain later if you need me too. There is actual proof that IQ scores do actually rise after auditing. Of course, you can also argue that listening to Mozart also raises IQ. Nonetheless, it has been proven and demonstrated. I have the source and the data sitting on my shelf right now. He also explains his results in a whole series of lectures.

January 7, 2009 / 20:29

El Diablo

Only that Scientology doesn't actually believe in heaven. When I have the time/can be stuffed, I will compile some primary sources that indicate LRH outright disdain for those religions you've mentioned.

The sad thing is that while you're still at the lower levels, your experience of Scientology will probably bear no resemblance to the picture of the CoS illustrated by critics like me. I have no doubt that this is EXACTLY the picture of Scientology you've been presented with thus far and I can understand why you defend it so vehemently . But if you keep going, I really hope you keep the various criticisms in mind, because I have no doubt you'll be in for some less than wonderful surprises regarding the ACTUAL underlying philosophies of LRH.

Seriously. Amber. I know you feel like you're "in" on some special knowledge, but people like me are watching in horror, because even with all the information available on the internet...even with all the critical-reasoning focus in our education system...you still can't see what's approaching on the horizon.

I mean, I hope it doesn't end badly for you, but I have this nagging feeling it will...at least if you try to keep moving up the bridge. (is that what they call it, yeah?)

Go to my first post. Print off that list. You may never need it, but I implore you to keep your eyes open and not just believe something because someone says it's so.

Critical minds want EVIDENCE!

Stay safe.

January 7, 2009 / 20:31

El Diablo

Proof. No such thing in science.

Only evidence.

But if you have evidence. Show me, then I MIGHT believe it.

January 7, 2009 / 20:34

Amber

I do really appreciate your last post. It is true I'm in the "early" stages but what I've discovered has been only beneficial and I’ve found nothing to be brainwashing or wrong with the tech. I’m also a skeptic but I’ve found that it really does work. Isn’t this enough? I’m truly happy. I don’t feel like something is missing anymore as far as spirituality is concerned. This has been proof, not evidence for me. I’ve taken some basic philosophy courses while working on my other degrees and was raised a Catholic, yet I never felt satisfied until I signed onto a Scientology course. I did what was called a life repair and went through their purification run-down. I'm convinced at this point in time that I'm operating now at a much higher level compared to before. I feel more positive and have more energy. There are costs involved but the auditors, mission counselors, the church’s overhead…..all cost money. There is an exchange. Money for services rendered. I get so much more out of this than say putting a five dollar bill in a passing offering plate. Bottom line……it works for me.
Would you be so kind to tell me of your profession……what you do for money let’s say?
*I’ve been to Ireland and kissed the Blarney Stone but it seems to me that you’ve made love to it! You’re nothing short of exceptional with logic and language. Are you Canadian?

January 7, 2009 / 20:57

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

The coffee shops you normally hang out in miss you

January 7, 2009 / 21:10

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

El Diablo's 20:31 post... YES.

January 7, 2009 / 21:14

El Diablo

"I’m also a skeptic but I’ve found that it really does work. Isn’t this enough? I’m truly happy. I don’t feel like something is missing anymore as far as spirituality is concerned."

I'm really glad to hear that (no sarcasm). You can probably tell that I have strong feelings about the CoS, but at the same time I do appreciate that their methods - especially at the lower levels - can really be empowering for people. I don't know if you've looked at much material from ex-Scientologists, but a good chunk of them - even after all the terrible things that happened to them - retain an appreciation for things they learned within Scientology. You are absolutely right about the 'proof' of personal truth. I mean, only you can know what works for you or not, and I really do hope that you continue to have positive experiences.

"Would you be so kind to tell me of your profession……what you do for money let’s say?"

I don't really have a profession, unless you count 'professional student' as a profession :p

But fortunately I have very low-overheads and a supportive partner, so that's not really an issue for me.

And I come from the downunderverse (Australia), although I hear we're culturally quite similar to Canada.

January 7, 2009 / 21:29

elvis

This is the greatest ever...

January 7, 2009 / 22:12

andrew

Freinds of ours joined the JWitness's a few years ago & all of a sudden their life changed.

Same as any religous CULT.

Remember David Koresh, Jimmy Jones, Jimmy Swaggert (forgive me for I have sinned). PTL club. People today just don't GET IT.
ALL have failed & sorry about Jett's death but Dammit Scientology is a CULT also.

January 7, 2009 / 22:34

jodi

The author has his facts all wrong and is obviously just parroting what he has been told by the media. What you will not find out from the media is that autism is caused by vaccinations. Vaccinations contain dangerous amounts of mercury and live viruses that leach into the human brain. This is why autistic people become suicidal. Mercury is the most dangerous metal on the planet. There is no safe level of mercury in the human body. Yet, we are injecting high levels of this metal into infants. one out of 99 infants will become very disabled and will be labeled autistic. The truth will come out eventually that our medical system and the vaccinations our murdering our children. Shame on your author for just repeating what you have heard. If you had done any real research you would find that autism is just a made up term by the medical industry to disguise their dangerous coverup. Read Jenny McCartheys story. If autism isn't caused by mercury poisoning then why are thousands of parents curing their kids of autism by detoxing the mercury in their bodies. Go figure. Time to wake up america and smell the bullshit you are being fed by the media

January 8, 2009 / 00:14

ron hubbard


scientology killed the young man. jet was not given proper medical treatment because the parents' cult won't allow it. Mr. and Mrs. Travolta are cult members. Many have died because of the cult, when will the US government end the dangerous evil cult like Germany, France and Spain have?

January 8, 2009 / 00:20

El Run Cupboard

Epic thread.

January 8, 2009 / 08:17

Horonymous

Amber

I could guess that your screen name reflects the colour of your hair.

Why to you play the sexism card because some folks challenge your views?

Toronto Mike's name is public knowledge that any regular visitor to this site knows.


My favorite post by you so far is how your are irritated with the difference in time zones between Canada and Europe.

Keep on posting.

January 8, 2009 / 08:31


James Edgar

Wow! I can't say enough good things . Crazy Amber indeed! El diablo you are my new hero!

I was ingnoring the thread because although I feel quite strongly that the COS and any other religion for that matter are just so much hot air for delusional people the debates usally just give me headaches.
And having had a child in my family die I know how devasting it can be. So I have some simpathy for the Travoltas.

I should have kept up this has been quite entertaining to read.

January 8, 2009 / 09:52

Amber

LOL. Thanks for the moronically inclined feedback Horonymous! Now, I can’t speak for anyone else but I personally find it extremely irritating when “some” people get the irresistible urge to jump in and leave random blank comments. Now, of course given our current “blog” surroundings and the sheer fact that the internet is especially democratically friendly; you are of course entitled to your opinion……however, I’m also at liberty to reply. I should first thank you for taking the time to compose and submit your guess as to how my hair was possibly determined from my blog name. The phenotypic characteristics of an individual are ALWAYS very relevant and of upmost importance during a discussion; whether it be online or during face-to-face communication. I can’t say that I’ve ever took the time to make a correlation between hair color and female names. I also have never met a woman named Amber with red hair; so I wasn’t honed in on your “supreme intellect” radar per se. Did it ever occur to you that perhaps my blog name was intended to reflect my favorite piece of jewelry or even that mainstream hypnotic 311 song? Come on you must know it – Sing it with me now - “Whoa, Amber is the color of your energy, Whoa…Shades of gold displayed naturally…..” But again thanks for your input, which was important to the subject at hand.

Also, I wasn’t playing a “sexism card” as you so called it. I may have come across as a little defensive or even irritated at that point in the discussion but this was directed again in regard to my hair color and its irrelevance to the subject matter at hand.

Horonymous: “Toronto Mike's name is public knowledge that any regular visitor to this site knows.”

This is great news! Again, thank you for taking the time to point that out. My comment “Who is the great Oz behind the curtain..?” was meant to be sarcastic on purpose! If you must know, this is my first time to the website and also the first time that I’ve ever participated in a blog. I stumbled upon the website from another page and felt particularly moved by the subject matter at hand, so I decided to stop in, take a peek and participate. That is all.

Horonymous: “My favorite post by you so far is how your are irritated with the difference in time zones between Canada and Europe.”

Uummm…..If you would have taken even five minutes of your time to read back over the previous posts and the conversation at hand, you just might have picked up on the fact that I was highlighting the fact that I was having problems with my comment submissions. My reference to the time zone change was because I had to wait for Toronto Mike’s response and for him to approve my comments. I was unaware that I was getting caught in his filter somehow at that point in time. I automatically brought to light the fact that I’m in Europe, as to provide a possible explanation as to why this was happening…..I’ve had problems before in accessing North American websites and certain material via the web. I didn’t know if this was somehow related to my IP address or my ISP. Okie dokie……?

Can I clarify anything else for you Horonymous???????

Cheers!

January 8, 2009 / 10:51

Amber

El Diablo,

I'll have to look you up if I ever make it to Australia. We can go for coffee and share information.

:)

My husband and I are currently trying to get to Japan from here. I would also love to go to New Zealand. I've done a few humanitarian trips while living over here in Europe and I must say I’ve caught the travel bug now! Thanks again for the grrrreat debate.....this was my first blogging experience. I had some time in between courses and it is so nice to see that there are a few "intelligent" people left in the world---(intelligent by my standards and opinion of course!)

Take care.

*I'm officially throwing in the towel now! I've spent WAY TOO MUCH TIME HERE ALREADY....We've nearly exhausted the subject matter at hand.

Cheers!


January 8, 2009 / 11:26

LEW

May I suggest Gaza for a little getaway. You can see how REAL religions hold a debate.

January 8, 2009 / 15:30

Mary

John Travolta and Kelly Preston should be brought up on charges for failure to deliver proper medical care for their son. Having an autistic son is nothing to be ashamed of. They should have embraced his difference and used their celebrity to raise awareness for the cause. Now a "religion" created by a crazy science fiction writer has claimed another innocent life.

January 8, 2009 / 15:59

El Diablo

Thanks Amber. I think this convo has been one of the most fun things I've done for a while. :)

I made an addy (obviously not gonna put my primary addy on the net). So if you wanna, you can contact me at:

CatsArePeopleToo@live.com.au

January 8, 2009 / 16:57

El Diablo

James Edgar: Do I get a cape? Because that would be really cool! ;)

January 8, 2009 / 16:58

Ajax Mike

Edna Mole says NO CAPES!

January 8, 2009 / 18:16

Horonymous

Amber don't need your explanations or your troll like comments.
Why all the hate?
How did you ever find anyone to put up with you?

January 8, 2009 / 18:16

Jmaes edgar

By all means . Capes look great!Edna Mole knows NOTHING !

January 8, 2009 / 18:57

codexofdreams

Totally unrelated- but El Diablo, if you're still here:

Do you happen to be a member of Wikipedia?

Your writing reminds me of someone there.

January 8, 2009 / 20:34

El Diablo

Codexofdreams:

I've made a couple of minor edits to maybe two or three obscure topics so it's highly unlikely the person you're thinking of is me.

Wikipedia is grand though...and I probably should give back, considering how many times it's saved my arse. :)

January 8, 2009 / 20:43


eve ringel

This can set back autistic research by years or fast forward it==The travoltas loved their son --it is just that they loved thier rediculous religion more--what a shame--

January 8, 2009 / 23:43

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Quote:

"scientology killed the young man. jet was not given proper medical treatment because the parents' cult won't allow it. Mr. and Mrs. Travolta are cult members. Many have died because of the cult, when will the US government end the dangerous evil cult like Germany, France and Spain have?"

Answer: The US govt is only interested in oil, not saving lives.

January 10, 2009 / 09:29

Jason | GetYourOJ.com

Quote: "We've nearly exhausted the subject matter at hand."

Nearly?!

Time to start your own blogs

January 10, 2009 / 10:57

El Diablo

Well I doubt that's gonna happen. But maybe *I* should, 'cause I could say A LOT more.

For anyone interested:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xevBWYRMqq0

First few seconds: "I've been a Scientologist for about 76 hundred light years now."

Considering this clip would have been produced as a promo-video within CoS, you'd think that SOMEONE would have edited this one out, because quite aside from the craziness, it's a profoundly STUPID thing to say.

Light years are a measure of DISTANCE NOT TIME.

Obviously auditing has not improved this guy's IQ.

January 10, 2009 / 15:16

Toronto Mike

If anyone wants help setting up a blog, I'm happy to help. :-)

January 10, 2009 / 15:32

El Diablo

Above now posted to:

http://scientomology.wordpress.com

All further commentary I have on this topic will now be posted there.

I hope everyone found our little war of words inter-taining! :)

January 10, 2009 / 15:41

El Diablo

Ooh, thanks Mike :)

You might start regretting that offer if/when I run into trouble. :P

January 10, 2009 / 15:45

Toronto Mike

Interesting article....

THOUSANDS of members of the Church of Scientology may be suffering from untreated mental and neurological conditions, according to a former follower who taught John Travolta, the Hollywood star.

Sufferers are told to cure themselves with vitamins and saunas while it is denied that they have problems such as epilepsy or autism, said Tory Christman, now a fierce critic of the church.

Christman left after suffering epileptic fits, culminating in a seizure which caused her to fall in the bath, knocking out her front teeth. Fellow Scientolo-gists refused to accept that she had a “real” illness, insisting that she work harder studying the teachings of the church’s founder, L Ron Hubbard, the science fiction writer, she said.

Christman, 62, from Los Angeles, was speaking in response to reports surrounding the sudden death of Travolta’s only son, Jett, 16, during a holiday in the Bahamas.

Travolta, 54, and his wife, Kelly Preston, 46, are said to have refused to address suggestions that their son was autistic, maintaining that he suffered from Kawasaki syndrome, an inflammation of the arteries that affects the heart.

Preston said she sought to cure it by changing carpets thought to have triggered allergies, but the boy continued to have seizures throughout his life. She said they tried to treat the seizures with drugs but stopped after being warned that these could damage his liver.

An autopsy in the Bahamas found that Jett died after a “brain seizure” in his bathroom, but no explanation has been given for what lay behind it. The body was cremated hours later.

Dr Michael Kohrman, a paediatric neurologist, said that up to a third of autistic teenagers also suffered epileptic seizures. Dr Jane Newburger, a cardiologist at the Children’s Hospital in Boston, said the death of a child over the age of eight from Kawasaki syndrome was almost unknown.

Last week Christman emphasised that her heart went out to her former pupil. “When he saw me years later, he remembered my name. He is a generous and warm man who did not deserve to lose his son like this.”

She said she had no idea whether Jett suffered from epileptic fits, which could have caused him to fall in his bath as originally reported, but the condition nearly destroyed her.

Christman said: “They ordered me to stop taking my medicines, saying I could learn to control it. But after I knocked my front teeth out on the bath, my mother came to Los Angeles and got me back on my medicines and I have been able to control it that way since.”

Tommy Davis, son of the Scientologist actress Anne Archer and head of the church’s Celebrity Center in Los Angeles, challenged Christman’s claims.

“I personally know two Scientologists who suffer from epilepsy who take some drugs to treat it, because although it may have a neurological aspect it is also a physical medical condition. And we insist that all people coming into the church have a thorough checkup by their own doctors before they join us. We do not have any policy on conditions like autism, either way. Our questions about psychiatric treatments are well known, but there is no conflict between taking drugs for physical conditions and progress through the church.”

January 10, 2009 / 16:53

Amber

I just can't resist this one...I like space science too much! Ok, Ok.....One more for the record and then I'm officially off to El Diablo's new blog. I have to check-up on her, now that she is reading LRH's "Dianetics" and all. By the way, this blogging stuff has been way too much fun - Thanks Toronto Mike!

Ok so.....Concerning that horrible YouTube video that El Diablo made reference-

El Diablo: First few seconds: "I've been a Scientologist for about 76 hundred light years now."

Amber's Response:
Currently (since 1983) the
meter has been officially defined to be the distance traveled by light
in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 second. See this article at the National Institute of Standards and Technology(NIST) Web site:
http://www.mel.nist.gov/div821/museum/timeline.htm

The meter is defined this way because currently time can be measured more accurately than distance. Therefore distance is defined in terms of time, using the constant speed of light in a vacuum as the
'conversion factor'. **Therefore, this establishes a relationship between the meter and the second. Being the perfectionista that I am, I went ahead and did the math for you:
1 meter = approx. 3.34 x 10 to the -9 seconds; and 7.19 x 10 to the 19 light years x 3.34 x 10 to the -9 seconds equals approx. 2.40 x 10 to the 13. **Therefore, 2.40 x 10 to the 13 divided by 31,556,926 seconds in a year equals an age of roughly 760,530 years old. Now given the current belief that the earth is approx. 4.5 billion years and the universe is about 14 billion years old this could actually be possible. The important thing at hand, is not the estimated enormous age of the subject, but the fact that El Diablo implied that this was irrational and ignorant because light year is a measure of distance not time. However, I just provided 'proof' or extremely strong (backed by science) evidence that this is false. Keep in mind that although "light years" is indeed a measure of distance; it is a tricky one and can also be converted to time units.

Any questions?

El Diablo: "Considering this clip would have been produced as a promo-video within CoS, you'd think that SOMEONE would have edited this one out, because quite aside from the craziness, it's a profoundly STUPID thing to say."

Quite the contrary, you made yourself sound well...let's just say a little misinformed or at least lazy. But an astrophysists just might say "STUPID" However, what you did is quite common and most 'lay' people would over look it.

El Diablo: "Light years are a measure of DISTANCE NOT TIME."

Sorry I just provided 'proof' or rather STRONG evidence to support that indeed light years can in fact be used to measure time.

El Diablo: "Obviously auditing has not improved this guy's IQ."

Now, I wouldn't say that! But perhaps auditing could help yours!

Also, the video that you provided a link to on YouTube has been edited so many times it is impossible to retrieve any real data on the subject. It was made with the sole purpose of being malicious and satirical.

I'm disappointed in you El Diablo!

;(

January 10, 2009 / 20:36

El Diablo

Oh sorry, I was in the process of unreservedly retracting on account of me being daft. I'm totally aware now that was a parody. I'd seen the original clip before and just didn't click that it was an insert until I'd already made the comment. :D

But I'm sure I'll say many more stupid things before I'm done. And I'm always happy to admit when I'm wrong.

January 10, 2009 / 22:36

El Diablo

Oh sorry, I was in the process of unreservedly retracting on account of me being daft. I'm totally aware now that was a parody. I'd seen the original clip before and just didn't click that it was an insert until I'd already made the comment. :D

But I'm sure I'll say many more stupid things before I'm done. And I'm always happy to admit when I'm wrong.

January 10, 2009 / 22:37

El Diablo

BTW, I'm pretty sure I saw your above comment pending over on my blog, but I can't for the life of me find it now...I don't know if I've deleted it by accident, or whether it disappeared into the aether while I was trying to figure out how to edit various bits of the post. Anyhow, I wholeheartedly encourage you to watch every word like a hawk and point out if I say something profoundly stupid. So feel free to repost/continue to post...and gimmie hell when I say something daft!

Anyhow, nice to see you're still about Amber. Have a good one.

January 10, 2009 / 22:49

Amber

No problem. Hey, were you kidding about taking the time to actually read Dianetics? To be honest, I like the Scientology aspect more than the Dianetics but I also realize that they go together like peanut butter & jelly. Anyhow, let me know if you need help understanding any of the concepts.

January 10, 2009 / 22:54

El Diablo

Oh and a light year is still a unit of length, not time. Period. I can convert joules to cals, or Cals, but in the process of that conversion there is a corresponding change in the "units". A light-year IS NOT a unit of time, even though a measure of time underlies it's definition. Actually, quite a clever misuse in terms of parody. :)

January 10, 2009 / 22:59

El Diablo

No, not kidding about Dianetics. I've read parts of it, but not the whole thing in a line...

Thanks for the offer. I might take you up on that, although I should tell you that I'm reading it in order to critically deconstruct it, so if you have second thoughts about participating in such an endeavour I could well understand.

January 10, 2009 / 23:10

Amber

Ok, I'm inviting a reputable third party....

:) I just emailed my "mathematician" friend. He is a grad and professor of Drexel University.

I agree. By definition it is only a unit of lenght, not time. However, it is still possible to determine age. However, not only in the sense of "light seconds, minutes, years, etc."

Like I stated earlier, currently (since 1983) the
meter has been officially defined to be the distance traveled by light
in a vacuum in 1/299,792,458 second. That is why the meter is defined this way because currently time can be measured more accurately than distance.

I'll let you know what his feedback is...

PS I recently took a college Physics class and I had to ponder that one out for awhile myself.

January 10, 2009 / 23:42

Amber

:) Hey, I like the way you think so if you want I can grab the book off my shelf and we can start together. What do you say? However, I'm also reading another "philosophy" book on rationalism and empiricism but it is hard to decide when there are also things like scepticism.

Where do you stand?

January 10, 2009 / 23:50

El Diablo

Hey I got a question you might be able to answer, Amber: Do you know what might be meant by the term "a body in pawn"?

January 11, 2009 / 00:00

El Diablo

Well, I've already started Dianetics (it's a pdf rather than a book)...but you'd probably overtake me quite quickly because I'm taking it pretty slow (not to mention I'm not a particularly fast reader) and cross referencing with other things. I imagine your copy will be a later edition...but I'll probably ask your opinion on interpretation of particular jargon when I get to it.

What's the title of the philosophy book ya reading? (if you didn't mind me asking).

January 11, 2009 / 00:08

Amber

I would guess, given I actually do play chess...yes, I'm a nerd; "a body in pawn" is the weakest link or it could mean that the soul uses the body as a mere pawn. The body is therefore not needed...? It could be referring to astral projection...?

The philosophy book is just titled a very generic "Philosophy" by Stephen Law. It is just one of those Eyewitness Companions. He is pretty good however.

January 11, 2009 / 00:27

Amber

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pawn_(chess)

According to this website however, I'm not sure of the exact context in which you are using it or reading it from; I would guess that "a body in pawn" is a body at war or part of an infantry.

January 11, 2009 / 00:36

Amber

Another thought.....

"a body in pawn" could be referring to a "mind" over matter concept or what the mind is doing to the body. Meaning the soul controls the body like a mere pawn.

January 11, 2009 / 00:48

El Diablo

Hmm, my housemate also made that suggestion...methinks it's gonna take some scratching about to decode that one with any degree of certainty.

Oh, and if you're looking for any other good introductory texts, I highly recommend "An Introduction to Philosophical Analysis" by John Hospers. I remember using it in my final year of secondary school, so it's quite readable.

Not all, but quite a significant number of pages can be viewed here:

http://books.google.com.au/books?id=OVu0CORmhL4C

January 11, 2009 / 00:48

Ex Boyfriend


My fellow on Orkut shared this link and I'm not dissapointed that I came to your blog.

April 9, 2009 / 12:14

Weiss - Devin

But Scientology also does plenty of great. And no, That's not me the next poster-boy for that bunch. I quit the group practically three decades ago. What Scientology does do is support enhance awareness, particularly spiritual awareness. To me, that benefit helped me in college, immensely. For an artist friend, it helped him make paintings in hours for what could have taken weeks. Before Scientology, conceptually I had constantly thought of myself being a spiritual being in a temporary body. With Scientology counseling, that reality became vividly clear. Exterior with full conception. Performing miracles in the magnitude of those performed by Moses. And most interestingly, I discovered I understood Christianity far a lot more totally than I ever had.

April 7, 2010 / 13:16

Will Cairns

Scientology has alot to answer for

August 18, 2010 / 23:14

Kiddo

The non-scientologist mother of 13 years old autistic child bullied with fabrications by a group of sadists:
http://forum.exscn.net/showpost.php?p=540835&postcount=33

March 12, 2011 / 11:38

Getting Married

Gee whiz how can you not admit that your child has autism when its plainly obvious to everyone else. Religion is a very dangerous weapon in the wrong hands. Why are there so many religions by the way/

March 20, 2011 / 00:28

Thrill Seeker

My friend's brother has autism and I think it so very hard on him and his family. But it's not a problem that you can wish away or pretend it isn't happening. When will people stop relying on religion start questioning the realities of society?

March 21, 2011 / 01:44

Carroll B. Merriman

This is getting a bit more subjective, but I much prefer the Zune Marketplace. The interface is colorful, has more flair, and some cool features like 'Mixview' that let you quickly see related albums, songs, or other users related to what you're listening to. Clicking on one of those will center on that item, and another set of "neighbors" will come into view, allowing you to navigate around exploring by similar artists, songs, or users. Speaking of users, the Zune "Social" is also great fun, letting you find others with shared tastes and becoming friends with them. You then can listen to a playlist created based on an amalgamation of what all your friends are listening to, which is also enjoyable. Those concerned with privacy will be relieved to know you can prevent the public from seeing your personal listening habits if you so choose.

June 10, 2011 / 00:00

esther

Realizing this today makes me very sad for this family. I wish I had paid attention to this years ago. I have a daughter with an undiagnosed disability. I am very interested to hear about the Church of Scientology's views on the disabled. I get this vibe of shame regarding their son. Sad thing...there is nothing to be ashamed about. I am not ashamed of my Bethany. I love her.

August 10, 2012 / 00:37

Anonymous

Epilepsy is not autism. Do your research. Jett Travolta's epilepsy was "secondary". Society perceives epilepsy as a psychiatric disorder and this is absolutely positivelyy incorrect! Epilepsy is a neurological disorder. Every problem associated with the brain is not a behavioral disorder.

Autism had nothing to do with Jett having a seizure and bashing his head on the tub. He should've been perscribed medication to control his seizures.

September 6, 2012 / 12:45

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