Tuesday Open Mike

Open MikeWelcome to this week's Tuesday Open Mike. I'm Mike and I'll be your master of ceremonies for the day.

Feel free to use this space to vent, rant, share a story and/or ask a question of the hivemind.

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Comments (112 - click here to join in!)

Nigel Trousershrapnel

Election predictions anyone?
I'm thinking a Hudak minority.
Should be very very close.

June 10, 2014 @ 7:17 AM


Philly-Bob

@ Nigel - I think you are correct, and I think that is the best possible outcome of this election....the Libs can not be in charge of the purse strings, but someone needs to keep Hudak from doing anything too silly...

June 10, 2014 @ 8:09 AM

Argie

I would be thrilled with a PC minority. Mind you a PC majority would be the only way to fix this broken province. We all know that's not going to happen though.

June 10, 2014 @ 8:11 AM

McNulty

I am guessing a Liberal minority.

And I think that's the best possible outcome. Hudak only needed to come out with a plan that was fiscally conservative and had an even keeled approach. Instead he picks a fight with unions, puts for a made up plan to create a million jobs that has been proven not to work and doesn't really provide a good alternative.
Andrea basically walked away from an NDP platform and went crazy. She won't be around for the next election.

....And before I am called a loony leftie by Argie....I voted for Harris many years ago. I voted Kim Campbell as well.

June 10, 2014 @ 8:24 AM

Andrew

It'll be a minority government no matter who 'wins' it and we'll all be back in the same boat in a year which is the real crime.

Sad waste of time and money - like so many of the other crap that's go on.

I think this is the Brewster's Millions election of the province. Vote "None of the Above" LOL

Cheers,
Andrew

June 10, 2014 @ 8:34 AM

Philly-Bob

@ McNulty - I don't think you're a loonie lefty, and I've voted Liberal in the past.

What I don't understand is how you (or anyone for that matter) can support a party that has stolen and lied to us as much as the Liberals have. I certainly don't agree with Hudak's entire platform, but I just don't see how anyone can give this group of Liberals another kick at the can.

This isn't a dig or an attempt to start a fight. I honestly want to know your rationale for thinking it's a good idea to give Wynne another chance to steal from us...smiling like the Cheshire Cat the entire time she does is

June 10, 2014 @ 8:46 AM

Philly-Bob

And as far as Hudak picking a fight with the unions...good! These unions need to be taken down a peg...they are an archaic form of labour management that have far outlived their usefulness.

June 10, 2014 @ 8:48 AM

this guest

Talk about an election 'leaving something to be desired.'

I won't give an opinion on what I hope for. Let's just say I miss the NDP of Stephen Lewis.

What we don't need is a premier who would be a friend to General Pinochet.
I thought we fought world war two against this sort of thing.
Apparently not.

It's time we all started wearing some wide-vision goggles if we want to leave anything decent for our kids.

June 10, 2014 @ 8:49 AM

Philly-Bob

@ this guest - man yo're getting closer and closer to Godwin's Law...by the 12th you'll be comparing him to Hitler.

Pinochet??? Really?

June 10, 2014 @ 8:53 AM

this guest

pinochet, reagan, margaret thatcher
buddies in bed

a certain ilk
a certain mindset

June 10, 2014 @ 8:56 AM

McNulty

How has this current government stolen money? What money did Kathleen Wynne steal from you?
Were there bad policy choices in the last 11 years? Yes. I don't agree with all of it. But ORNGE was going to happen under any government. They hid what they were doing.
The E-Health issues are pretty indefensible, but Wynne had nothing to do with it.
Gas Plants isn't stolen money. It is great rhetoric but 1.1 Billion dollars has not been lost. Read the report. Most of that Billion dollars is the cost of building new transmission lines, new plants and associated costs. So it's not a waste. A horribly timed decision for sure. But not a billion dollars wasted.

As for the unions, while you may want them "taken down a peg" for reasons you never make clear except for anecdotal stories of one lazy guy making more than you, it's a stupid to come out swinging. There are lots of ways to make changes to the public sector. He came out with punch to the face and kick to the crotch and then says, "oh, it won't be that bad." If this is the way he deals with other issues then you can expect more problems ahead.

And unions can have a place.

June 10, 2014 @ 8:57 AM

this guest

McNulty
those are very level headed points of view @ 8:57

June 10, 2014 @ 9:04 AM

Ben Vidal

@McNulty: There seems to be a direct correlation between hate for unions and jealousy for the perceived free pass they get in the general public. A teachers pension is too good and I pay for that with my tax dollars. Therefore I hate teachers unions( which is incorrect because teachers pay a lot into their pension fund)

In Philly's case his experience dictates all his beliefs. He's been wronged by a biker down town, therefore all bikers are assholes on the road. He's worked in the restaurant industry and apparently all the gay men he encountered there had a chip on their shoulder. Therefore all gay servers are aholes. Philly Bob knows a guy who's in a union who is happy with status quo and lazy. Therefore EVERYONE in a union is lazy. Philly has a cousin or some family relative that pops out kids to collect more welfare. Therefore all well fair recipients are sucking on the tit of the system and wastes of space.

The list goes on. I'd hate to live in his world because if I based all of my beliefs on what happens in my immediate microcosm I would hate everyone and everything. Except puppies of course, no one hates puppies and they have never ever wronged me.

It's a sad day when he thinks a Conservative minority is a good thing because then Hudak won't do anything too silly. Say what?

June 10, 2014 @ 9:09 AM

Ben Vidal

*welfare not well fair of course

June 10, 2014 @ 9:11 AM

Argie

@McNulty
I don't think you're a loony left. However, our friend "this guest" might well fit that description with his usual scare mongering and conspiracy theories..

Anyway, the best way to cut spending without effecting the service to the public is to go after the public sector unions. The waste, the BS and everything else is a drain on taxpayers. Is a no brainer for any common sense politician (that's right, I said "common sense").

Also how did Horwath go "crazy"?

@this guest
Reagan and Thatcher = two of the greatest politicians ever!

June 10, 2014 @ 9:15 AM

this guest

Argie

from months and months of defending Ford
you think you would have twigged into something
about how you interpret and totally mangle data

Remember, Ford is a gateway drug to the more serious substances such as
Hudak and the American tea Party consigning generations of people to poverty, illness and desperation

I fear there isn't much time Argie to help you.

June 10, 2014 @ 9:36 AM

McNulty

Argie..

Andrea went crazy when she betrayed her core values and opposed a budget that any other NDP leader (or even member) would have written themselves. She has advocated for years for an Ontario Pension and now opposes it as "Harper-esque"? How is the CPP Harper's doing?
And her platform is about lowering insurance rates by 15%. She has a magic wand to do this.
The rest of her campaign lacks a coherent message and she's making up new Ministry jobs.
And she refuses to answer basic policy questions with a "we will evaluate that later" approach. I think that's week. I may dislike Hudak but at least he stands for something.
And you may dislike Wynne but her vision is clear.

June 10, 2014 @ 9:46 AM

Nigel Trousershrapnel

I have been wronged by puppies on numerous occasions. I don't know for sure but I would assume that those who have caused me the most distress are union members. Members of PUP (Public Union of Puppies) Local 16573. They're lazy. They want me to feed them and what thanks to I get? They piss on my carpet and crap in my yard.
Time Hudak will fix their sorry asses.

June 10, 2014 @ 9:48 AM

Nigel Trousershrapnel

Time Hudak?
oops!

June 10, 2014 @ 9:50 AM

Argie

@Nigel
Its "time" for Hudak to take over. That's what you were thinking, right?

June 10, 2014 @ 9:54 AM

Argie

@this guest
For the record I don't think Hudak or his party are perfect - far from it, actually. I just think they are the only choice in this sorry election.

Its a non-starter to vote for the NDP for me and most people and obviously the liberals can no longer be trusted with running this province (regardless of their policies).

June 10, 2014 @ 9:57 AM

Nigel Trousershrapnel

Argie,
No thinking required in this election. The lesser of three evils. Hold your nose and cast your ballot. Democracy at its finest. yadda yadda yadda!

June 10, 2014 @ 9:57 AM

Cheryl

Well, the Rangers lost. Just one more loss and that's it. Ho hum. I have to pay my dad. It's looking more and more like I have to pay him. I lost the bet. Rangers suck. they go and beat my Habs and then they can't beat the Kings. Anyway, this could be the last hockey game. Ho hum. The games are scheduled to start at 8:00, but they don't start until 8:30 or so because they doddle around. I miss John Bartlett and Sergio Memeso as they are way better than the shitty announcers on right now. Oh well, less than three months and my Cardinals start playing, and they will win the Superbowl. I already voted in the election and I voted Liberal. My trainer talked me into voting for Glen Murray so that's what I did. I'm so glad I have mmy trainer.

June 10, 2014 @ 9:59 AM

Argie

@CHERYL
You stated the "Rangers suck", however they beat your Habs... Thus, your Habs must "suck" even more. That's not very nice.

As for voting for Glenn Murray. Umm, is there a way you can go back to the polls and re-vote (correcting your mistake of voting for Murray)? Can you ask someone about that?

June 10, 2014 @ 10:06 AM

Sam Adams

My birth mother could be running as a Liberal in my area and I still would NOT vote for her.

June 10, 2014 @ 10:35 AM

this guest

did Cheryl actually say

'shitty?'


Did you Cheryl? :-)

June 10, 2014 @ 10:45 AM

Lorne

I think the Liberals will get a minority, but just barely. Right now it's a statistical blip in any direction. Wynne could have locked in way more votes if she'd been more vocal about being the "Wynne Liberals" rather than this nameless, faceless party that's earned a bad rep recently.

Seriously, everything horrible everyone complains about could be traced back to McGuinty's decisions. She's pretty much swept house and has taken steps (sort of) to take the party in a different direction. She wants people to know this is new management. But she isn't really campaigning hard on it. Which I think is a mistake.

Sure, it isn't always the best move to "blame the last guy", I get it. But she could have spun this so well... like, "There undoubtedly were mistakes made. Not gonna lie. You're all mad, and have every right to be. Here's what we hear your saying (gas plant, ORNGE, etc), and here's the steps we've taken already to address and correct the issue, and plans we have if elected. Real, enumerable, actionable steps. We know the public has lost some confidence in the Liberals, and has lost some faith in the Liberals, and all I can say-- that's me, Kathleen Wynne-- is that I personally agree with you and will do everything in my power to fix the mistakes that have been made."

Can you imagine how much higher in the polls they'd be-- locking in all the "on the fence, lesser of all evils"-- if she could actually come out, admit mistakes, and be able to prove she's a new government, and that there's a difference between McGuinty's regime and hers?

June 10, 2014 @ 10:51 AM

Lorne

Come to think of it-- anyone want to hazard a guess as to how long it will be until we see a majority government again? The problem is that everything's become too divisive, too American style "us vs them". You pick your party and the other side is EVIL DO NOT LISTEN TO THEM THEY ARE EVIL LIES EVIL HSSSS! Even if one party had an excellent platform that would be beneficial to the entire province (or country on a federal level), you aren't "allowed" to vote for them because-- well, because they're "Them".

Pretty much guarantees an even split down the middle (or three-ish ways in Ontario's case), and there will never, ever be a majority.

June 10, 2014 @ 10:53 AM

Douglas

I'll predict a Lieberal minority - NDP coalition as the government (sic) that will result from Thursday's election. As others have said, only a Progressive Conservative majority can truly rescue Ontario and Ontarians from the mess that we are in. If we get as I suspect, nothing will ever happen with all of the (alleged, but where there's smoke in Queen's Park, there's wildfire) corruption and scandals that we have lived through for over a decade, and we will continue to pay, pay, and pay some more for all of it, with less in our bank accounts to live on.

While I am very much in favour of everyone having the right to not join a union, and unions being limited to using dues only for pure union activities (administration, grievances, collective bargaining), they have a place to play, even in today's modern employment society. Unfortunately, there are still places with poor, unsafe, etc. work practices.

Where public sector unionism has gone too far is demonstrated in the significantly higher pay in the public sector vs. the private sector for "equivalent" jobs, with estimates typically in the 15-25% higher range. Public sector wages have to be paid by the private sector (public sector employees are net negative to government coffers). As Ontario's private sector, especially higher-value-added manufacturing continues to shrink and leave the province, thereby leaving us with proportionately less private sector and more public sector, something is going to break. When it breaks, it will be incredibly ugly.

I was in New Zealand in the late 1980s after they "hit the wall" financially. Ambulances "brought to you by your local Holden (or Ford) dealer". Police and medical helicopters with advertising on them (mind you, the OPP could put Liberal stickers on their cars now). Finally, it didn't matter whether Labour or the National party was in power - every single government program was savaged. Health care, education, agriculture, every single subsidy program. GONE. Overnight. It took New Zealand close to 20 years to recover. Ontario's story would be different, but it will still be very ugly.

June 10, 2014 @ 11:55 AM

Lorne

@Douglas: The reminds me-- there's ads on the side of GO buses now. It's already begun. =(

June 10, 2014 @ 12:10 PM

Anonymous

I'd really like someone to explain what the big mess is that people keep claiming we are in.

Education isn't falling apart. Healthcare isn't falling apart. Unemployment isn't at a level that is too far off other places.

The main problems are things that are happening globally. We aren't anywhere close to Greece levels as the rhetoric claims. Our energy prices are comparable to other similar jurisdictions.

What are we being saved from?

June 10, 2014 @ 1:19 PM

Argie

@Anonymous
Well, for starters the debt has more than doubled in the 11 years the Libs have been in power. That's well above inflation.

While this debt has risen, we've endured a blended HST on almost everything we buy. We're also taxed higher than when the PCs were in power under the Great Mike Harris (peace be upon him). Throw in being charged for OHIP (which our employer has to pay, which effects what we're paid).

I could go on but I probably lost you with that whole debt talk.

June 10, 2014 @ 2:01 PM

this guest

a June 9 public letter from
Hazel McCallion slams Harris/Hudak
endorses Wynne

her letter refers to financial reasons

June 10, 2014 @ 2:48 PM

4x4 Time

I agree that the debt crisis is the most pressing issue we face as a province and one that whatever party is voted in should concentrate on and implement some pretty strict budget cuts and spending to stop the bleeding.

Ontario’s current debt is roughly $270 Billion or close to 40% of our total economy, or about $20,000 per Ontarian and about 9% of our total revenues go to pay interest debt. At least we can be grateful for low interest rates right now.

Too reduce debt we need to cut spending and/or increase revenue (raise taxes) likely a combination of both. Choose the Party you think is most capable of managing this.

The Drummond report had as close to a “non partisan” vision on clear priorities and plans to start reducing debt. Too bad nobody listened.

June 10, 2014 @ 3:03 PM

Argie

@this guest
And shortly thereafter, Wynne was seen handing Hazel a thick envelope. Contents of the envelope are not known. One can only speculate.

June 10, 2014 @ 3:46 PM

this guest

Argie,
I wasn't aware that Premier Wynne bribed Mayor McCallion for her endorsement
as you have suggested.

Are you sure you're not confusing them with
photos of your political hero mayor crackhead scooping them up
at the esso station in etobicoke.


June 10, 2014 @ 4:07 PM

Dawn Keibals

If the Blue Jays just play 500 baseball for the remainder of the season they will make the playoffs either as division winner or wild card.People hop on that bandwagon.
Special shout out to the doctor/chemist whom has invented the drug Jose Bautista & Brett Lawrie are on that prevents their temper tantrums every time a strike is called on them.

June 10, 2014 @ 4:09 PM

this guest

The interesting thing is
that a conservative mayor of a large ontario city
doubts the financial acumen of hudak
based on previous experience with his mentor

June 10, 2014 @ 4:09 PM

Matt

@Mississauga Phil

Care to expand on how "unions have outlived their usefulness"

I'm quite curious, I've been on both sides of the fence. I'd much rather be in a union.

June 10, 2014 @ 4:15 PM

Matt

@Dawn Keibals

Agreed, last year they wouldn't have won last nights game. The team we all expected last year, is coming out this year!

people should play hooky and head down tomorrow for a 12:30 game, wish I could make it.

June 10, 2014 @ 4:17 PM

4X4 Time

@Dawn Keibals..It's called maturity for Lawrie and leadership for Bautista...Could not have come at a better time...

June 10, 2014 @ 4:19 PM

Matt

@Mike

How are you feeling after the ride this weekend?

June 10, 2014 @ 4:21 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Matt

Pretty good. I'm at a meeting at Queen St. East and Victoria Park and I biked here. So I'll be biking 50 km today and I'm feeling no pain at all.

June 10, 2014 @ 4:26 PM

Corey

I'm going to bore everyone with my new mantra, which is "Decline your ballot!" Especially for those of you who are in the "hold your nose and vote" crowd. If all of the options are so distasteful to you, what message are you sending by voting for the "lesser of three evils"? Is the message really "You can all be horrible leaders with repugnant platforms, but it's okay, you don't need to strive any higher than being the best of a bunch of losers and we'll elect you."??? Imagine if we could send a message that said,"We as voters refuse to endorse any of you clowns until you get your shit together and stop paying lip service to our concerns and actually commit to serious, honest plans to improve this province!". Well you can send that message. Decline your ballot.

June 10, 2014 @ 5:45 PM

Glen

I have a question for those voting for the NDP or Liberals on Thursday.


What was your reaction to the anti Hudak radio and tv ads produced by the public sector unions? Were they over the top in your opinion? Did you actually believe that if the Conservatives were elected that it would destroy the space/time continuum? Did you feel they insulted your intelligence?

Or your voting for the NDP or Liberal because you like your local candidate and what their party stands for.

Be honest.

June 10, 2014 @ 6:19 PM

this guest

Seeing as how much of Hudak's appeal is to people who want to pay down the 'debt' it would be interesting to ask exactly 'What is this debt of which we speak?'

An alternative view of 'debt:'
Razmig Keucheyan
theguardian.com, Monday 9 June 2014 17.17 BST

(excerpt)

On the day following Marine Le Pen's Front National victory in the European elections, however, France made a decisive contribution to the reinvention of a radical politics for the 21st century. On that day, the committee for a citizen's audit on the public debt issued a 30-page report on French public debt, its origins and evolution in the past decades. The report was written by a group of experts in public finances under the coordination of Michel Husson, one of France's finest critical economists. Its conclusion is straightforward: 60% of French public debt is illegitimate.

Anyone who has read a newspaper in recent years knows how important debt is to contemporary politics. As David Graeber among others has shown, we live in debtocracies, not democracies. Debt, rather than popular will, is the governing principle of our societies, through the devastating austerity policies implemented in the name of debt reduction.

June 10, 2014 @ 7:29 PM

this guest

Glen I personally believe Hudak will destroy the space/time continuum and has been doing so for thousands of years, outside of time of course, reentering at will or upon the bidding of his masters, who actually stay alive by eating time.

June 10, 2014 @ 7:32 PM

Anonymous

@corey - im planning to do just that after learning about it right here. usually I spoil it but tomorrow im going to decline. my husband thinks im nuts and it 'wastes a vote' - but, for me, its the only way I feel comfortable voting.

June 10, 2014 @ 7:48 PM

dale

RIP for the 3 RCPM's that had their funerals today.

Thoughts & prayers are with ALL of their families & friends.

All 3 provincial leaders are losers & will probably be a minority & then another vote within 2 years, just a waste of taxpayers $.


June 10, 2014 @ 8:05 PM

markosaar

Reading Gizmodo, I had no idea George Harrison's version of I've Got My Mind Set On You was a cover:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k68Fob0QA_k

June 10, 2014 @ 9:14 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

Personally, I think declining your ballot is pointless. I would never do it.

June 10, 2014 @ 9:45 PM

Corey

@Toronto Mike -

Why is it any more pointless than casting a vote for a candidate of party you don't actually feel good about? That's apparently what the "hold your nose and vote" people do.
Isn't one definition of insanity repeating the same action over and over, expecting different results? Oh! The Liberal's have been in office for too long and now we're seeing evidence of corruption and scandal! We'll fix them - let's elect the Conservatives! Oh wait - now the Conservatives have been in power for too long. Guess what? Corruption! Scandal!
I'm not playing that game any more. Is my declining my ballot going to accomplish anything? Not likely, but I imagine eventually, if enough people voiced their displeasure this way, we might at least get a conversation happening, instead of happily going along with the status quo, and rewarding mediocrity or worse, dishonesty and corruption.

June 10, 2014 @ 10:23 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Corey

1. You're better voting for the lesser of the evils than nobody. You're essentially denying yourself the right to vote.

2. It won't make a difference. Declining your ballot won't change a single thing.

3. Declining your ballot helps the Progressive Conservatives. Conservative voters are far less likely to do this and the vast majority of activists who would decline their ballots would be voting Liberal or NDP. That's why this decline your ballot campaign was invented and promoted by a conservative-friendly group.

It's a pointless PC trick that I hope few people fall for.

June 10, 2014 @ 10:30 PM

this guest

I understand the Russell Brand idea of 'rejecting the system'
for offering a hoax (elections that change nothing)
but on the other hand
if everybody voted in something incredibly positive...
well then....


June 10, 2014 @ 10:41 PM

this guest

even replace 'incredibly positive' with


'not destroying the environment any further...
'at least being open to the idea that bees matter...
'be motivated by some sort of empathy...measurable empathy...

June 10, 2014 @ 10:42 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

This "decline your ballot" fad is being heavily promoted by http://www.declineyourvote.ca/.

A quick visit to http://www.declineyourvote.ca/contact_us reveals it's the work of Paul Synnott.

As you'll see at https://www.linkedin.com/in/paulgsynnott , Paul Synnott owns Polisource.

Polisource ( https://www.linkedin.com/company/1857650?trk=prof-exp-company-name ) is "a New Media Solutions company focusing on conservative Canadian Politics at the Municipal, Provincial and Federal levels".

June 10, 2014 @ 10:48 PM

this guest

I wondeer how many online comments sections are being flooded by 'concerned citizens:'

Anonymous
June 10, 2014 / 19:48

@corey - im planning to do just that after learning about it right here. usually I spoil it but tomorrow im going to decline. my husband thinks im nuts and it 'wastes a vote' - but, for me, its the only way I feel comfortable voting.

June 10, 2014 @ 10:55 PM


Glen

Yay for classy Liberal tactics.


Doorknob flyer shows a photo of Tim Hudak laughing as he walks away from a destroyed hospital.

https://bcblue.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/hudak-flyer-liberal1.jpg


The boogeyman looks under his bed for Tim Hudak.

June 11, 2014 @ 7:18 AM

Ben Vidal

Yes Glen, because attempts at voter suppression are the same as scare tactics boths sides use. I see the parallels.

June 11, 2014 @ 7:47 AM

this guest

Oh Jeez.
That was disappointing in a visual sense.
Nowhere near what 'destroyed hospital' implies.
I was expecting something dramatic.

June 11, 2014 @ 7:50 AM

McNulty

@ Glen

But you're okay with voter suppression, right?

If we want to compare scare tactic ads and flyers then we will have a long conversation. All there parties do it. I don't care for it but they all do it.

Voter suppression? Show me the NDP or Liberals doing it.

June 11, 2014 @ 8:13 AM

Corey

@Toronto Mike -
Okay, no your opposition to declining the ballot is clear. You're looking at it from a partisan perspective. It might hurt your favourite party, and help the bad guys win. Can you cite the source for your claim that Conservative voters are less likely to decline?
I thought a fad was something that sweeps everyone up in a frenzy. Since neither I, nor anyone else I know, nor apparently anyone on this site knew this option existed, I'm not sure I can call it a "fad". I read exactly one article about this by Carol Goar of the Star (that notorious conservative rag) where she mentioned the option of declining the ballot (but recommended against it). She didn't mention Paul Synott once.
I googled him after reading your post and found interviews in which he claims to be disillusioned with all the parties, including the Conservatives, but he's obviously a liar, and this a diabolical scheme, because he's associated with the adjective "conservative"!
Somewhere north of 50% of eligible voters in Ontario don't bother to go to the polls, some because they're lazy, some because their uninformed, but I'm sure a huge percentage feel like I do right now. If they knew about this option, they might take the time to get out and make sure their opinion was counted. Same with those who deliberately spoil their ballots. Letting those people clearly take a position (none of the above) isn't going to help the Conservatives at all.
Its a legitimate option provided by Elections Ontario that has just as much validity as casting a vote. It's what I'm doing.

June 11, 2014 @ 8:20 AM

McNulty

@ Corey

While I applaud your critical thinking and that this is a choice that matters to you, I just don't think it's the right one. Even if there were more declined ballots than votes for the winning candidate, it wouldn't change the outcome nor would it change the thinking of the three parties.

Unless there was a complete change to the election rules and parliamentary process, the declined ballot is worthless.

Now if the rules changed and it did causes something, then that's something to think about. But really, what would it cause?

But you have the right to decline your ballot and I support it. While I want my party to win, I'd rather have you decline your ballot then not vote at all.

June 11, 2014 @ 8:36 AM

519 Rob

I'm with Corey.
I am heavily leaning towards declining my ballot.

I don't care if it's a PC strategy or not.

I want my vote to tell the story that I think ALL OF THEM ARE CROOKS AND LIARS.
Why would I vote for...Libertarian, or Green, or Communist (all options in Guelph)?

June 11, 2014 @ 8:43 AM

markosaar

If I voted Communist my grandparents would haunt me.

June 11, 2014 @ 8:47 AM


Argie

@519 Rob
I don't how you can say they're "all crooks and liars." Hudak and Horwath haven't been given a chance to prove they're crooks and liars. Unlike Wynne and the Libs, who have been and they are.

June 11, 2014 @ 8:53 AM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Corey

Activists almost always lean left.

And again, it won't change a thing or mean a thing. Why not just vote for a candidate?

June 11, 2014 @ 9:04 AM

James Edgar

Interesting discussion as always . And as always very partisan.

I'm still not buying into Hudak. And I did vote for Harris way back.

Wynne and the liberals either. There's enough smoke with the Hard drive erasures ( I'm in IT completely erasing hard drives so they cannot be read is not a trivial matter, and I do have some knowledge of the Ont. Govt. infrastructure. they have a datacentre that has multiple backups of backups. ) and a few other things that I'm uncomfortable with that I couldn't vote for them.

Horvath is a flake that even a few longtime NDP voters i know will not vote for.

So interesting problem.Decline my vote? not an option I like.

As for attack ads I'll say it again as I have before. No matter who puts them out i hate them. All i want to hear is what people stand for and what they think is the best way to manage the province.


June 11, 2014 @ 9:08 AM

Glen

@McNulty and @BenVidal


Of course I don't agree with voter suppression. The letters might have been a mistake. I don't know.

However it's not the PCs who are being investigated by the OPP. That would be the Liberals over the gas plants. You are willing to overlook that fact but this must be true.


Unfortunately I think it's the Liberals who will win on Thursday.
The scare tactics worked. The amount of money the public sector unions poured into election was insane. Even Elections Ontario expressed concern. None of these Liberals scandals will matter in 4 years. Hudak will have resigned, maybe Horvath as well. And as I've stated before I believe we will have Liberal governments in Ontario for the next couple of decades. It will be a dynasty like the Conservatives in Alberta.
That's not good for democracy.

June 11, 2014 @ 9:12 AM

Argie

@Glen
Great points but remember the problem with democracy is summed up quite well by a Churchill quote. He said “The best argument against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.”

Unfortunately, that is democracy and as Gurney noted, the people of this province will get what they deserve.

June 11, 2014 @ 9:23 AM

this guest

I'm wondering if somebody signed that voter suppression letter
accidentally with their La Pen

June 11, 2014 @ 9:33 AM

Anonymous

@Glen: My apologies but I don't remember a time when I actually stated or implied I was willing to overlook the gas plants. In fact a recent post stated I had no faith in any party and I'm going to go with my local candidate based on conversations and their own personal brand.

It's sad/funny that the only two cases of potentially accidental attempts at voter suppression were in riding where a big liberal dethroning would be beneficial to the conservatives.

Much like deleted emails and documents it all stinks.

I don't condone scare tactics, but currently all parties use them.

Voter suppression is a low for Canadian politics and democracy in general.

I also don't enjoy or desire dynasty's of one party holding on to power for decades.

The only good that could come from a liberal minority is that Hudak gets shown the door and can go back to Walmart and preach to the choir about low wages and how terrible unions are and whose employees won't argue with his mathematics. Then the conservatives elect someone who is both progressive and conservative in the same reference. Then this leader can blow the Liberals out of the water in the next election.

All the while with a platform that isn't about gutting and cutting, but proper fiscal management.

June 11, 2014 @ 9:49 AM

Ben Vidal

Anon was me.

June 11, 2014 @ 9:49 AM

Anon

Well I think there is no way Hudak gets elected. Going after unions and announcing such large cuts has really pulled a lot of people against him that normally wouldn't vote or would Conservative.

Everyone knows someone with a public sector job or has family involved. Of course when family is at a threat of losing work others will rally behind them.

I've seen my aunt who hasn't voted since the early 90's ready to vote Liberal because her daughters a teacher. A brother in law who has voted Harper since he was first elected going to vote liberal to protect his wife's job.

Funny thing about both of them is that they're business owners and are unconvinced on what Hudak could do for them. Their businesses are doing fine and they attribute most struggles in the manufacturing industry have nothing to do with taxes rather much cheaper foreign competition.

I wish Hudak would had took a more modest approach with the same goal in mind. There was an election to be won here (with a majority) and he went full retard. Now people are willing to overlook the gas plant blunder because of how terrible Hudak's campaign has been.

June 11, 2014 @ 10:27 AM

Argie

@Anon
My wife is in a public sector union. I have friends and acquaintances who are teachers. They can all tell you the waste and lackadaisical work ethic that is present in their work environments.

Of course, similar waste happens in the private sector but thankfully I'm not funding the private sector. Through my tax dollars, I fund the public sector thus, I have a stake in how its run. Therefore, drastic measures have to take place to fix this wrong. Hudak's plan is just the start - more has to be done throughout Canada.

June 11, 2014 @ 10:34 AM

519 Rob

@ Argie
Maybe its a bit unfair that I am painting all politicians with the same brush, but they all (eventually) lie and cheat.
Give Hudak and Horwath time, they won't disappoint.

June 11, 2014 @ 10:38 AM

Glen

Now that Wynne has won this election....what happens now?


Ontario high school teachers contract expires in August. Does Wynne give them pay raises? If she doesn't they will go on strike or withdraw servuces like they've done over the last few years. But she wants to balance the budget in 3 years. Education is the 2nd largest expenditure in this province.

It's not enough to say Hudak will blow up the sun. Elections are easy. Governing is hard.


Those voting Liberal tomorrow. What would you do?

June 11, 2014 @ 10:38 AM

this guest

.....waste and lackadaisical work ethics in their work environments.

One could focus on all sorts of stories of stirring personal accomplishments. Of serving the public and students effectively, with concern, and cooperating with fellow employees to create a good work environment. Of teachers who come home and drop with sheer exhaustion at the end of a day of caring.

we have so much to be thankful for. People come from all over the world amazed at how simple things are here (we think differently) in terms of graft, corruption, and underhandedness, nepotism, etf...

You Tea Party fanatics look for dirt wherever you can find it holding it under a magnifying glass and screaming look 'dirt...dirt...'

June 11, 2014 @ 10:40 AM

this guest

and now to apply the same argument to myself:

You old-style leftists look for dirt wherever you can find it holding it under a magnifying glass and screaming, " Look! Dirt! Dirt!

June 11, 2014 @ 10:44 AM

Aurora Bob

Education is this province is in need of a fix. In York Region the Public and Separate Boards each have massive head-quarters building in Aurora. The opportunity to reduce duplication is huge if someone with the cajones came in and said that they were going to condense the Boards into one.

The Separate Board is more of a money waster than the Public. I personally know someone at the Separate Board that is a fairly high-level person and her kid goes to the private school in King City because they do not like how the Public and Separate Boards are run.

Stand by the driveway at the end of the day and watch the cars the employess drive. Lot's of BMWs, Benz, Acuras, etc. Not many Kia, Chevys there. Says a lot right there.

June 11, 2014 @ 10:52 AM

Glen

@thisguest

Many small municipal mayors have complained about the high cost of policing by the OPP. Their budgets cannot sustain the annual raises give to the provincial police. Some of them are afraid they may go bankrupt because of the escalating costs.


Here's an article from the London Free Press on February 2014:

http://www.lfpress.com/2014/02/22/small-municipalities-across-ontario-crushed-by-soaring-opp-policing-costs


Which one of these mayors belong to the Tea Party?

June 11, 2014 @ 10:59 AM

Argie

@this guest
I don't need a magnifying glass when I walk by a TTC toll both each morning. Lots of HUGE dirt there.

June 11, 2014 @ 11:06 AM

Cheryl

One more hockey game tonight, but I'm not going to listen to those boring announcers, just bring on the new season. My Habs should have beaten the Rangers in the first place. I'm not going to change my vote. It's hard enough getting rides to the advanced poll. It would be even harder getting a ride to the pole tomorrow. Anyway, my trainer knows Glen Murray and liked him. That's why I voted for him. My trainer doesn't live in Toronto anymore, only commutes to Toronto to work. Anyway, I am not going to change my vote and you can't make me do that either. So there is really a game on at 12:30. I'm not going. I will only go if it gives me a chance to meet my trainer's kid who I haven't met yet. They're not going so I don't go either. Well, can't wait until my Arizona Cardinals start playing.

June 11, 2014 @ 11:14 AM

headsup

@Argie,
I'm sorry that you married a lazy woman who doesn't take pride in her work. That must be disappointing for you.

Many of you people like to hate on those lazy union stiffs on here, but it is so much easier to throw stones than look for the good news stories that are out there.
My wife is a teacher and quite often puts in twelve hour days, investing lots of her time, energy, and her own money into her work. She works hard because she believes in what she does, and wants to do her part to make this world a better place. Not only does she educate based on the curriculum, quite often she is left to be a parent-figure to those kids who do not have a sound or solid foundation or framework at home. Its really something to see someone go to work everyday with zest and enthusiasm, only to know that a child will likely tell her or a coworker to fuck off, or a parent will say that they don't give a rat's ass about their child's education because the stuff they are learning now won't matter when they are in their twenties. I'm glad there are still people in this province and country who are willing to put their best foot forward in building up others to make the world a better place. Building up goes so much further than apathy, negativity, or wishing for the downfall of others.

There are lazy teachers, but there are a lot more who are hardworking and dedicated. There are lazy private business types as well, but they don't get hated on. Not everyone should be painted with the same brush.

June 11, 2014 @ 11:23 AM

Argie

@headsup
When did I say my wife is one of the lazy ones? Obviously not all employees are useless piles of garbage. But clearly, you have little understanding when it comes to logic.

I hope your wife enjoys her two month summer vacation....

June 11, 2014 @ 11:32 AM

Corey

@Toronto Mike -
I would argue that people on the right have a lower tolerance for supporting their party of choice if they perceive that party is straying from its central tenets. Think of the origins of Reform or Wild Rose etc. there are a lot of what I would term "Big C" conservatives who feel Harper has betrayed them. Same for Hudak. I don't see any reasoning that supports the idea that they would be less inclined to decline a ballot.

I get the idea that I'm not changing anything, but I also don't feel like I'd be changing anything by supporting the status quo (which includes all 3 viable parties).

June 11, 2014 @ 12:56 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Corey

Go ahead and throw away your vote. That's your right. I just wouldn't do it.

June 11, 2014 @ 1:16 PM


this guest

Argie
June 11, 2014 / 11:06

@this guest
I don't need a magnifying glass when I walk by a TTC toll both each morning. Lots of HUGE dirt there.


You are so full of hate it's amazing you're not in France working for La Pen.

June 11, 2014 @ 1:45 PM

Rob

@Argie

I'm glad our teachers and police officers make a great pay and teachers get two month summer holidays.

IMO teachers are the most important profession in the entire world. We can't control if a child has terrible parents (most of the time) but in school we can give them the foundation to become a productive member of society. I think in my life I maybe had two or three teachers that I'd consider lazy. That is a pretty fantastic ratio.

If it takes a good salary and holiday to have quality teachers, I will gladly pay more taxes to facilitate that. We don't pay these teachers for a the countless overtime. All those teachers coaching sports teams, choir, drama/musical events are all doing that on their time. I don't think I ever had a teacher that wouldn't skip a lunch or stay after school to help me if I was struggling. Anyone complaining about teacher's holidays or pay are just sort-sighted and envious.

Hudak wants to cut down out education system and increase class sizes. I don't get why conservatives like to follow the American system when it comes to crime/education, when those systems are failing in America.

It is one thing to trim the fat when unions get more comfortable. It is another to increase class sizes which is saving $$ at the expense of a child's education.

I would hope Mr. Hudak would be more creative in finding ways to save money in the education sector. Alas, his brain trust had a majority for the taking and they fumbled it.

As someone with multiple family members in education I thinks savings could be had if we cut that catholic system and convince the union that under preforming teachers should be let go. I hear the occasional story of teachers simply getting suspended when they should be canned. I am sure there is ways to evolve education to take advantage of the digital age for cost savings. Why don't we attempt fine tuning the system before we force our children to have an inferior education to the ones of the past.

June 11, 2014 @ 2:00 PM

Argie

@this guest
Your posts are much more hateful. I'm just pointing what I see.

I truly think you're insane.

June 11, 2014 @ 2:14 PM

headsup

@Argie
You get what you pay for. If teachers, police officers, healthcare workers, etc. aren't worth paying decently or respectfully, then don't be too upset in a few years when no one wants to serve in those professions.

People who share Argie's views about public sector workers don't see events like the killing of RCMP officers in Moncton as a tragedy, but rather as a mixed blessing. The downside is that the public purse gets dinged for the cost of the funeral, pension payouts, and grief counselling. On the upside, there are three less public sector salaries to pay out, not to mention healthcare and old age benefits those officers would have been privy to.

June 11, 2014 @ 3:37 PM

McNulty

@ Rob

If teachers have the most important job in the world them they should be evaluated as such. There are far too many useless teachers that don't so their jobs effectively. And I hate to admit that their union protects them far too much and leaves the administration powerless to stop bad teaching.

I don't agree with Hudak's cuts and I won't vote PC but out education system needs to be looked at.

June 11, 2014 @ 3:50 PM

Argie

@headsup
Again, you're stating things I've never posted. Where have I mentioned police officers? I wouldn't want to be a cop for all of the money in the world.

However, I don't think I have to worry about there not being enough applicants for teachers or police officers. The list of applicants is a mile long. Obviously, they're paid well and receive generous benefit packages.

OK, now you can go back to misquoting again.

June 11, 2014 @ 3:52 PM

Argie

@McNulty
I agree. If teachers were better scrutinized, the ones who go above and beyond the call of duty would be rewarded as such. The ones who fall short would lose their jobs. That's how the real world works but the majority of teachers and their union would never go for it.

June 11, 2014 @ 3:57 PM

Ben Vidal

The problem then becomes a catch 22. Some bad teachers know how to play the game so that principals and the powers that be like them. Their actual teaching skills may be horrendous and they are lazy as well. You think a third party watchdog would change this or be allowed to fire them? You think the principal they brown nosed to would fire them? They will invariably be protected if such extra scrutiny occurred.

Then there are teachers who are good teachers with whom a principal doesn't like or has a hate on for. They move them from classroom to classroom each year and punish them by constantly micro managing. If there was an ability to fire more easily these teachers would get the boot quite quickly. With kids ultimately losing out on a good educator.

How do you address those situations? Simple answer is you can't and to headsup's point teachers are important. The smaller group of bad ruin it for the good. I really think it should be a factor of more stringent rules on becoming a teacher. From schooling to pre-evals before they enter the classroom on their own.

Eliminate as many bad apples as you can before hand. Make teachers college rules more stringent so that it doesn't matter the school they are all tough to get into. don't allow people to go Australia or Buffalo to get a teaching degree to try and come back here to use it.

Lastly the rule allowing retired teachers to come back 3/4 time then 1/2 then 1/4 needs to stop. Let fresh blood get in, once they pass the above mentioned stricter process.

June 11, 2014 @ 4:08 PM

4x4 Time

@ Headsup - Quote - "People who share Argie's views about public sector workers don't see events like the killing of RCMP officers in Moncton as a tragedy, but rather as a mixed blessing" - You should be ashamed of yourself.

June 11, 2014 @ 4:14 PM

headsup

I will agree that there are some teachers, doctors, other public sector workers that are subpar. I agree that discipline and reward should be more closely followed in the union. But who pays for that monitoring? Who carries it out? The big problem is that no one has a solid plan for the next eight-ten years. No one has had a good plan for this province or country in decades. Its disheartening.

June 11, 2014 @ 4:16 PM

this guest

The scope of this conversation, here, now is artificially shrunken.
It cannot segue into enriching sidelines, abstractions, cultural issues of
fascinating or anything involving an imaginative approach.
The guidelines are too much like a repetitive pattern.

___________

Argie, I am fine with knowing you think I am 'insane.'
The extremely right-angled corners of your thought process
buckle with rigidity against any thought diametrically opposed to your own.
Have you ever 'turned off your mind, relaxed and floated downstream...' to quote the Beatles.

_________

Carl Jung's 'Red Book' has more to offer than any of the three political leaders or parties. Enacting empathy and psychological wholeness has to go hand in hand with political action. So the social realm cannot be forgotten.

_________

I hate everything Martin Luther King hated (and it wasn't just sitting on the back of the bus). I do not love the way he loved, few of us do, but I certainly agree with his assessment of power structures.
It's how society works we should be thinking about. there's an interesting saying that goes like this:
A banker, a tabloid reader, and an immigrant are sitting at the same table. There are also 10 slices of cake on the table.
The banker takes 9 slices and tells the tabloid reader, 'Watch that immigrant, he's after your cake.'


June 11, 2014 @ 4:49 PM

Luigi

Sad to say but I think I'm the majority when I say that I feel that no matter who you vote for it ends up wrong. I would like to see a PC minority with the NDP holding the balance of power, so that we could give Mr. Hudak a chance but Ms. Horwath could keep him on his toes. I don't like the idea of anyone getting a majority tomorrow.

June 11, 2014 @ 6:13 PM

Glen

Neither the left or right should be very happy the way this election campaign has gone.

The important issues were never discussed. It was mudslinging from the very beginning on all sides. I love Horvaths line during her show on CFRB on the weekend when she said it's a choice between the corrupt and the crazy.


I think we're going to pay a heavy price for this party.


June 11, 2014 @ 6:19 PM

dale

All are losers.

Just like the All Star ballot for MLB, I'm writing in Bill Davis as probably the best premier of Ontario in my life time.

A spoiled ballot, but at least I voted.

June 11, 2014 @ 6:59 PM

Liz

@Glen

Buddy, even with all the l flotsam here, you have become the voice of clarity in quoting Andrea. "...choice between the corrupt and the crazy." Sums it right up.

I live in Simcoe-Grey - home of Helena Guergis. This is a PC stronghold - that's it, that's all. Jim Wilson is the incumbent and will win with crazy numbers. He does a lot of great things for seniors and for health care - among his many other notable contributions. I voted in the advance poll some time ago. I voted for Jim Wilson the guy as opposed to Jim the PC candidate. The other candidates just don't stand a chance - regardless of their possible contributions. Not in Simcoe-Grey anyway.

I'm not a fan of the whole spoil your ballot thing. I mean, hey, have at'er if that's how you roll. It's not for me. Too worn out to really articulate why. I suspect the voter numbers are going to come in at an all time low this time around which truly saddens me. Although I certainly can appreciate why.

I'm going to be moving back into the city - to downtown Toronto over the next while. It'll be a whole new ballgame come next election. I hope my stomach can hack it.

June 11, 2014 @ 7:17 PM

this guest

I have enjoyed Ben Vidal's & McNulty's voices over this past period as non-partisan and describing the issues objectively.

June 11, 2014 @ 8:40 PM

Gump

I predict...

the lowest voting percentage ever!

June 11, 2014 @ 11:03 PM

CQ

@McNulty (Jun10th, 8:57)
Ontario should have planned for a new Gas Plant directly upon the large and former Cooksville Coal plant location at the waterfront outside of Etobicoke. There was already a big transmission line running north to the QEW highway (and another, longer, hydro field route running N-W, just north of that location.)
Instead the plan was to elbow a new gas plant steps away from poshville - walking distance from Sherway Gardens, in Mississauga. The coal plant had parkland to its east and a golf course to its north, with a small industrial business district westward.
It goes with that other failed GTA transit idea of a (from Kipling station) rail corridor subway extension turned south into Sherway Gardens.

June 12, 2014 @ 11:04 AM

Cheryl

The Rangers won. Well, it will go seven games then as I will win my money. Anyway, Rangers win three more. Well, Glen Murray will win tonight. I hope he will anyway. Who cares about the all star ballots. I never vote in those things. All star games really do nothing for me.

June 12, 2014 @ 4:54 PM

Liz

Fuck me.

Global is predicting a Liberal government. At this point, those cocksuckers only need 7 seats to be in majority territory.

What a fucking disgrace. For a thousand and one reasons that I am just too fatigued to list.

Hudak is also a disgrace. His messages weren't clear and didn't resonate. Particularly with a Liberally sympathetic media. He and his people did not do well enough in their communications.


My ass is in the air as I grab my ankles. I'll throw my wallet out the window because it's going to be pillaged in short order.

June 12, 2014 @ 9:38 PM

Marie

A Liberal majority! Are you frigging kidding me! That's it I'm moving out of this province. Doh!

June 12, 2014 @ 9:40 PM

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