Gay-Straight Alliance

Gay-Straight AllianceArgh.

This recent news story about Cardinal Thomas Collins taking exception to the McGuinty government's amendment to its anti-bullying legislation preventing Catholic school boards from vetoing the club name Gay-Straight Alliance, pisses me off. If an anti-homophobia group wants to call itself Gay-Straight Alliance, so be it. Unfortunately, the Catholic church regards homosexuality as a sin, and the name "gay" in a Catholic school group's name is something they fear.

At this point I should fully disclose that my mom worked her entire career as a teacher in the Catholic school board and I attended Catholic schools through high school. My kids, however, are in the public system. The archaic rhetoric spewing from the church in 2012 is shameful and I can't believe this separate school system gets $7 billion a year in public funding.

Can we please stop funding institutionalized hate?


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Comments (58 - click here to join in!)

Gump

Why oh why are we funding 2 distinct full service educational systems? Can anyone justify this redundancy in today's multi-national, multiple faith mosaic that is Canada today?

May 29, 2012 @ 4:32 PM

Peter

Even if you want the church to be less archaic, more progressive, you can't change the Bible. Either you believe it or you don't. You could stop funding it though. But you could also stop taxing those that school their kids outside of funded schools, to be fair.

May 29, 2012 @ 4:33 PM

Sam in Pickering

It's time we stop financing religious schools. Catholic schools can go private like Jewish schools or Muslim schools.

May 29, 2012 @ 4:34 PM

CQ

But its in the constitution! Is that what you want? To open up our entire national constitution for renegotiations? Can we trust other provinces without their having adequate S. Ontario Liberal representatives?

May 29, 2012 @ 4:53 PM

Dave Williams

I do believe that the funding should be for public scholls only, but CQ stole my thunder and it is apart of our constitution. However, unless a group is part of the education curriculum, eg; Chess Club, Glee Club, the group should not be on any educational property regardless of where the funding comes from.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:04 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Dave Williams

But the board seems okay with the existence of the club, it's just the name they won't tolerate.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:06 PM

Corey

You had me until your last sentence Mike. Institutionalized hate? You went to a Catholic school - do you really feel they taught hate?

May 29, 2012 @ 5:06 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Corey

This is a tough one to answer. I definitely had a teacher spend an entire afternoon explaining how he believed AIDS was god's punishment for being homosexual. He sincerely believed that and taught us that.

But, there's no way that lecture was on the curriculum. So I chalk it up to rogue teaching.

What can't be denied is that the official stance by the church on homosexuality that it's sinful - so on one side they're saying they won't tolerate bullying of gay students, but on the other side they're the bullies doing the bullying.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:12 PM

Cambo

And to think. John Tory lost the Provincial election based on precisely this issue.

He was right. Either ALL faith-based schools get funded, or none. Unfortunately, it was spun in a very bad way, but he was absolutely right. And now we pay the price with McGuinty.

The Catholic school system is discriminatory, and we fund it.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:16 PM

Grumpy Penguin

Count me as one who believes they teach hate.

And it's "in the Constitution" as a method to protect the French Roman Catholic church from being trod into the ground by the English Protestants 150 years ago. I don't subscribe to the notion that once something is in a "Constitution" it shall never be changed from that day forward. There should be one public school system, it should be paid for out of everyone's taxes (because we are in a society together) and if you wish to send your children to recognized private schools and pay for it out of your own pocket then that should be your right. I find it pretty ironic that the Catholic Church wants to retain the right to use my money to teach bigotry in their schools but are upset when we demand accountability for that money.

I want an end to the free ride.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:25 PM

Dave Williams

@Mike; when aid's first appeared in the 1980's it was predominately known as a gay persons disease to the general public. I would suggest that the teacher was promoting hate when discussing why gay men were the face of the disease, I would suggest that it was more a sign of the times.
Also, the views on homosexuality were far different than what we experience today.

May 29, 2012 @ 5:33 PM

Nick

I enjoy reading this blog and I admire Mike for his opinions as well everyone's but most of you are way off on this.

Let me ask, how many of you actually know any gay boys/girls in the catholic system? If you do, ask them how they're treated? I currently have 2 boys in the catholic system, they both know openly gay students in the school. In fact one of these students came out during an open discussion in class one day where many of the students including the teacher, openly embraced the student. Another student is in the catholic system because he was bullied in the public system for being too "feminine acting. Please do some research before making comments about this and please seperate the funding issue from this as its apple and oranges. The funding issue is a topic which must be addressed one day soon because I agree it is unfair to other faiths, but it is seperate issue from the gay/straight alliance issue.

The one thing I can tell you as a father of 3 children who have attended the catholic system, they have never been told to dislike or hate anyone at anytime for any reason. If a teacher ever told one of my children that God is punishing Gay people with AIDS I would want that teacher punished for making such a stupid ignorant comment.

May 29, 2012 @ 6:06 PM

Brother Ryan

Just to back up my brother I too was taught by the same teacher that aids was a punishment for the unethical behavior of gays. Wow. I was confused enough in grade 7! What a fool!

May 29, 2012 @ 6:11 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Nick

I'd love to ask this teacher follow up questions today, but he passed away years ago.

I like your comments, especially reading about how your children have never been told to dislike anyone at any time for any reason in the Catholic system. But, this begs the questions... why all the fuss about allowing these anti-bullying groups to be called Gay-Straight Alliance?

May 29, 2012 @ 6:20 PM

dale

@ Mike

This entry will have the most comments ever on your blog, guaranteed.

Only Public school funding should be subsidized, however ANY religious schools should NOT BE. The "Gay word" situation only makes the Catholic School Board hideous as they still don't accept anything with sexual orientation differences. It's not the 1800's.

All starts at the TOP of the Catholic chain - the PEEP (POPE) & his dissidents of Bishops & Cardinals have to realize it's 2012.

How many of these culprits have been accused of
inappropriate activity with young boys, as of last week.

SEX, POLITICS & RELIGION are a persons own preference & so be it.

We live our life to be the best we can for our family & this is what we all should do.

For any of you parents who have kids attending a Catholic school - HOW OFTEN DO YOU ATTEND CHURCH with your Kids?.



May 29, 2012 @ 7:57 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@dale

I'll take that bet. Current comments champ is this entry that put Prima out of business. It's at 621 comments and counting.

May 29, 2012 @ 8:15 PM

Rosie

Marino Gazzola thinks that the word "gay" in the name of these groups is a distraction. But LGBT students are at a higher risk of being bullied. It is illogical not to call these clubs Gay-Straight Alliances. The word gay is powerful and political, and sadly many are still scared of it. But that's the point of these groups in schools- to raise awareness. With awareness comes understanding, and when we help young people understand something they are scared of then we start to get somewhere.
It should surprise no one that there is a fuss over the use of the word gay in a club's name operating within a Catholic school. The Catholic Church considers homosexual behaviour a sin. Its tenets also marginalize women. None of it makes sense and one would think almost certainly guarantees its demise (as well as the eventual cessation of public funding of its schools) but in the meantime there will be battles like this making news.

May 29, 2012 @ 9:00 PM

TiedToATree

Section 29 of the Constitution Act 1982 says that you can't touch existing minority-religion education rights that are already in the Constitution, and that they're not subject to Charter review. And since Section 93 of the Constitution Act 1867 (the British North America Act) says that minority Catholic and Protestant school systems are here to stay, that means they're here to stay. The courts have upheld that, ruling that these rights are part of the Constitution, and that the Constitution can't "review itself", for lack of a better way of putting it.

So if you want to legislate Catholic (or Protestant) schools out of existence, tough noogies. You can't, not unless Section 29 of the 1982 Act is changed.

However...my reading of Section 93 of the BNA Act only suggests that these schools have a right to exist. Nowhere does it say that they have a constitutionally-guaranteed right to public funding, at least not that I can see in that document. It seems to me, then, that the decision to fund these schools is a political one, not a constitutional one.

So, in other words, I think the argument that "its in the Constitution" is irrelevant horse crap, at least as far as public funding is concerned.The Catholic Church has no constitutionally-protected claim on my tax dollars. It only gets them because our elected government doesn't have the stones to say "no".

May 29, 2012 @ 11:13 PM

brad

the catholic church sure is acting gay

May 29, 2012 @ 11:13 PM

elvis

I encourage the Church and the Catholic Trustees to continue to try and defend their position. It's clear, even to other Catholics, how out of touch they are with society and reality.

May 30, 2012 @ 12:33 AM

Nick

@mike
My 17 yr old tonight I think summed it up when I tried to talk about it he said "Dad, at my school we don't bully anyone-straight or gay or black or brown or white. We don't talk about it or make an issue over it but you adults do." I don't want to minimize gay bullying but why is the focus on only gays? Isn't bullying is bullying? If I am offending someone please let me know because I would be equally upset if I saw a gay man getting beat up as much as I would a black man. One is not less than the other. Am I missing something?

@dale
Totally unscientific answer but as I said above I have 2 boys in the catholic system and one who was up to 3 years ago. We attend church about 25-30 times a year and more so when the boys had a sacrament year. From what I can tell, I would be surprised if the number of catholic parents who have children in grade school who attend church is higher than 30% and that is even a stretch. When you move to high school parents, I'm willing to bet its not even as high as 10%.

If my numbers are correct and I think they are based on the fact that if the numbers were as high as even 50% all the catholic churches in the GTA would be full and standing room only on Sundays. Putting this in perspective, let me ask you how many non-French kids go to publicly funded French schools? I've had a few people tell me over the years that they put thier kids in French Immersion because it is poor mans private school due to the class sizes and low teacher/student ratio.

With regards to it being 2012 and the church changing, don't count on it as it will never happen. This is deep rooted doctrine based on the belief that every sexual act should only be for procreation. This is why their stance on contraception has not and will not change. The fact that 2 men can't have children from a sexual act is at the core of the lack of change.

Sorry for the long post

May 30, 2012 @ 12:56 AM

J9

@ Nick - I can tell you from experience that in the Peel District SB, low teacher/student ratio is not a reality in the French Immersion program. The classes are just as large as in the traditional English stream.

Great posts from all - I have enjoyed reading the responses.

May 30, 2012 @ 6:59 AM

Rick C in Oakville

All religion harkens back to stone age thinking. Time it put itself in the "obsolete" bin.

May 30, 2012 @ 7:10 AM

headsup

@Rick C in Oakville
How ironic that on a posting about anti-bullying that you choose to bully people of any faith.

It is rediculous that so much publicity and attention is focused on the name of a club. Wouldn't it be a better use of energy if the separate schools put such attentions on relevant issues like poverty or homelessness? As a seminary student in a Protestant denomination, that's my understanding of what Jesus was all about: caring for everyone, giving to those in need, and empowering those who are marginalized by society. The issue of accepting people of various sexual orientations should really be a non-issue these days. We live in a nation of diversity. People should be encouraged to be themselves, and to accept everyone else, whether they are different or the same.

I do take issue with the name Gay-Straight Alliance, but for different reasons. If there is a club with this name, is there also a Fat-Thin Alliance, a Caucasion-Other Races Alliance, or a Disabled-Able Bodied Alliance? The making of groups with such specified names seems to call more attention to the differences on people and leads to labeling. At the core, aren't we all just human beings? Shouldn't there be one anti-bullying group which encourages students to join who are either bullied or strongly oppose the concept of bullying? Instead of being an "anti" group, couldn't it be a Pro-Acceptance Alliance? It would be quite a shock to the system if positive language was used here. It might actually help kids feel good about who they are.

May 30, 2012 @ 7:52 AM

McNulty

@ headsup

It isn't about what you think the name should be. If that's what the group wants then the group should be allowed to be called it.

I don't have a problem with the Catholic Church not allowing these kinds of groups in their churches, but if they want public money then they need to follow the public rules.

And "It might actually help kids feel good about who they are."

You may be surprised that gay kids do feel good about who they are. And this kind of club good help them further and let others know that they do as well.

I will disagree with Mike that the Catholic Church preaches hate but I will agree that some of its members do.

@ Dave Williams..

"when aid's first appeared in the 1980's it was predominately known as a gay persons disease to the general public. I would suggest that the teacher was promoting hate when discussing why gay men were the face of the disease, I would suggest that it was more a sign of the times."

Ignorance is not an excuse. And it was pretty known by the time Mike's teacher said these things that this "gay" disease affected everyone.

May 30, 2012 @ 8:25 AM

Mississauga Phil

I have to agree with McNulty -The Catholic Church does not preach hate, just some members. And as far as the people cliaming that if you follow the bible, then homosexuality is wrong...you should know that the bible also tells you to beat children who don't listen, and it has very specific instructions for dealing with slaves....the bible is outdated..it was not fedexed from heaven..how can any of us truly know God's will.

Just live a good life, don't hurt others if you can help it, and hope that if there is a God, he'll be happy with that.

May 30, 2012 @ 9:13 AM

Jeff

It isn't an "anti-homosexual" group, it is an "anti-bullying" group. Therefore, the name is not representative. I'm not a catholic, but I think there is an important distinction there.

May 30, 2012 @ 9:34 AM

Rob

Atheist here.

Don't know why people get bent out of shape about publically funded cathloic schools. You choose which school system your taxes go to. If you don't want to give money to the cathloics, then dont.

May 30, 2012 @ 9:56 AM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Rob

Atheist here. People get bent out of shape because this option to publicly fund Catholic schools isn't extended to any other religion.

May 30, 2012 @ 10:28 AM

Pete McPhedran

@Rob scooped me, I was going to mention that fact that if you do not want your tax dollars to go to a Catholic School, that is entirely your choice. You tell the government where you want your school taxes to go, public or Catholic.

The funding issue is actually moot in this argument as the funds from the tax payers that choose to send their tax dollars to the Catholic school board are using those dollars to educate the students. The amount of money provided through tax funds does not cover the costs of the publically mandated curriculum. Catholic schools get further funding from the Church, whether that is the parish it is connected to, the Archdiocese or right from the Vatican.

Some parishes collect money on Sunday specifically for the school, not generally, but for the specific school they are connected with. Some people Tithe and direct those funds to the school. Some Schools charge a tuition fee. I do not know about Toronto as I attended Catholic shool in Point Edward and Thailand. There were fees in Thailand, not in Pt. Edward.

As some people have said on other news soures, if you go to Catholic School you expect Catholic ways, you don't accidentally go there and get mad when you have to say the Lords Prayer. As has been mentioned here as well, homosexuality is a sin in the Catholic Church as sex is supposed to be for procreation of life.

Last thought, let's say the government found a way to stop sending tax dollars to Catholic schools. Now what? The public system can't handle the volume of students and you can bet your last tax dollar that the Catholic Church won't sell the properties for cheap. The Catholic school system provides a needed service to millions of students and I have never been taught hate at a Catholic school, quite the opposite actually. Doesn't mean there aren't haters that are Catholic, I am sure there are.

--Pete

May 30, 2012 @ 10:30 AM

Mississauga Phil

@ Pete - Well said. Might I add that it's not like the public schools are a haven of tolerance and acceptance.

I was educated in the catholic school system in Mississauga and was never taught to hate anyone. Moreover, my parents couldn't have put me in a public school if they wanted to. If I went to public scholl i would have had to go to TL Kennedy in Mississauga. As anyone in the Saug wil tell you, TLK is our own little slice of compton. It's so bad that Peel Reigonal Police set up a smal branch in a storefront next door so that they could get there quicker when violence erupted...which was pretty much every day

May 30, 2012 @ 10:40 AM

Jeff

@Mike - Why didn't you vote for John Tory with your views on school funding? :)

May 30, 2012 @ 1:45 PM

MrFascination

institutionalized hate?

Pretty ignorant comment...

Amazing how an "Anti-Bulling" bill has become all about gays..

May 30, 2012 @ 1:47 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@Jeff

Tory was going the wrong way. He wanted to bring private religious schools under the public umbrella. I'd rather have no religious schools under the public umbrella.

May 30, 2012 @ 1:49 PM

Toronto Mike Verified as the defacto Toronto Mike

@MrFascination

The Catholic church has made it all about the word "gay". I agree, it's silly.

May 30, 2012 @ 1:50 PM

Mississauga Phil

Also...I'd just like to point out that the word "Gay" is used in countless church hymns.....just saying

May 30, 2012 @ 4:15 PM

TiedToATree

@Rob and Pete,

Check your tax returns, guys. You only get to decide where your local property taxes go. The province provides enormous chunks of funding to Catholic schools, and much of that money is actually sourced from federal transfer payments. Last I looked, I didn't get to decide where my federal or provincial income taxes went. Certainly, no retailer ever asks me where I would like my HST money to go!!!!

So, um, yes, I as a non-Catholic do fund the Catholic school system. It all comes out of the same pot into which I pay. And you know what? I resent it. Very, very much.

May 30, 2012 @ 7:35 PM

Anonymous

Whoever tells you that checking the “I am a Catholic school supporter” makes any difference to school board funding is perpetuating a myth. Checking this box allows you to vote for Catholic school trustees, but has absolutely zero financial consequences. The following is from a document produced by the Ottawa-Carleton Catholic School Board: “When you designate yourself as a separate school supporter, there is no longer a financial benefit to our Board. Rather, your designation guarantees a strong political voice through your elected representative (Trustee) in ensuring your rights to a Catholic education for the young people in our province.” By their own admission, property tax designations do not benefit Catholic school boards. Please stop repeating this myth.

May 30, 2012 @ 7:37 PM

TiedToATree

@ Anonymous:

Assuming that you are right, that makes my point even more effectively. "Public funding" of Catholic schools means just that: the general tax-paying public pays for the special Catholic system. And the myth that the Catholic system is somehow self-funding is just that: a myth.

I pay for that system. I can't opt out. I'm just expected to pay up and shut up. I am forced to pay for someone else's special privileges--privileges which, you will note, no one else is allowed to have. I pay so that one very specific group can benefit...

...and then, to come back to the original point of this article, the people who take my money seem to feel that they can do as they please with it and not be held to the standard of non-discriminatory behavior which we expect of other publicly-funded institutions.

If they don't want to be held to that standard, they should get their hands out of my pocket. Enough of this nonsense, I say.

May 31, 2012 @ 11:10 AM

MrFascination

@ Mike, No Its the Education Minister who has made it all about "gays"... Not the Catholic school system.

May 31, 2012 @ 11:20 AM

Mississauga Phil

Before I say anythign else, I need to preface this by saying to do not agree with homophobia, racism, sexism, or any other form of discrimination. However the act of discrimination is not reseverd solely for Catholics.

Now that I've got that out of the way....there is a reason why there are more catholic than public schools in the GTA...we live in a supply and demand society. So while you may not want your tax dollars going to the catholic school system, obviously the majority do. We are a country founded by christians.

To paraphrase the PM of Austrailia a few years back...we were founded by christians and while we will always respect the diversity of others, people commming to our country must understand that we are a christian nation, we will hang crosses in our courthouses, and have christimas trees in public places..our national anthem makes reference to God. The amount of concessions we have made to avoid offending people who chose to come here is mind boggling to me.

That being said, people have the right to belive what they want, be attracted to whom the want, behave the way they want, so long as these beliefs, attractions and actions do not harm others. I'm sure people will call me an idiot, but that is how i feel.

May 31, 2012 @ 11:29 AM

Dave Williams

Well said Phil; but our society does not allow us to behave the way we want per se. There are people that preach hatred and those people are bullied to a certain extent themselves. Labelling groups such as a gay/straight alliance or even the Aryan brotherhood promotes feelings in both positive and negative ways, just because the group has a moniker attached to it.
When groups of people want to be reconized by the title of the group, they have assume that others will judge them by the groups name first and not nessessarily for the individuals within the group.

May 31, 2012 @ 1:38 PM

elvis

If you have to start your comment off by saying you don't agree with discrimination, you probably have to think twice about what you're going to post.

I didn't "come here" - I was born here. Please keep your pagan/christian tree to yourself.

May 31, 2012 @ 4:03 PM

Mississauga Phil

@ Elvis - My sincere apologies if I offended you, it was ot my intent.

May 31, 2012 @ 4:25 PM

TiedToATree

@ Phil,

This is going to be my last post in this thread. Say whatever you want after this, because I won't be listening. I just can't be bothered any more.

You're going to have to do a lot better than that milquetoast apology you offered, because that last comment was WAY over the top and WAY out of line.

Think I'm exaggerating? Lets take a little walk through your post and see what we find.

I don't know how and I don't know why, but you somehow turned this discussion about Catholic schools into a rant against immigrants "coming here" and failing to appreciate that this "is a country founded by Christians". Oh, and we should all bow to the will of "the Catholic majority".

First of all: Catholic majority? Um, no. At best, Catholics are about a third of the population of Ontario. Maybe you were absent the day they taught math at your school, but one third is not a majority. Don't believe me? http://www.statcan.gc.ca/tables-tableaux/sum-som/l01/cst01/demo30b-eng.htm (That's the best data I have to hand, and it is a bit old, but I highly doubt that Catholics have become a majority since 2001).

Second...a "country founded by Christians". I can guarantee you that the Christianity practiced by the people who founded this country in the 19th century would be unrecognizable to you today. And, whether you like it or not, your country in the here-and-now is full of people who do not in any way identify themselves as Christians. (It sort of always was, but that's an argument for another day.) So, all in all, I have no idea how "founded by Christians" strengthens your argument at all. Trust me, it doesn't.

Third, the national anthem makes a very generic reference to "God". Not "Christ", not "the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit", nor anything of the sort. Just "God", which is there to give everyone the room they need to interpret it any way they want. You took that reference to "God" and turned it into a reference to "Christianity", in a way that says "This is my country, not yours". No. A thousand times no. I will not allow you to take my country away from me like that.

Fourth, you very strangely use the term "Christian" as a substitute for "Catholic". No. Sorry. I will not let you get away with that one, either. There are many people who consider themselves "Christians" who would find it deeply, deeply offensive for you to conflate their beliefs with those of the Catholic Church, and I strongly suggest that you not go there.

And, finally, there was your stunning howler about how those who have "come here" should be expected to conform to "Christian" ways. Nice try, Phil, but I was born here and so were a lot of people on my side of this argument. In fact, my family has been in this country for nearly 200 years. Not only do I not identify myself as Christian, but I can guarantee you that my Canadian roots go back farther than those of many of the people who attend the very Catholic schools about which we are talking. This is absolutely, definitely not about people "coming here" and taking away the right of "Christians". It has positively nothing to do with who came here when.

This is about one minority--yes, minority--religious group which has manipulated a 19th-century political compromise to cling to an outsized amount of power. Worse, that group has appropriated tax dollars that were supposed to be for the good of all for its own parochial purposes.

And worst of all, that group is using that money and that power to oppress minority groups within its own fold. And yes, making it very clear to gay kids that they don't belong in your school or your church--and, at best tolerating them only grudgingly because the government is forcing you to--is oppression.

Enough. Enough. Enough. This situation in Ontario is unacceptable and untenable. It must change. This flap over the "Gay Straight Alliances" makes that blindingly obvious. This situation will not stand.

Respond any way you like. I'm done.

May 31, 2012 @ 10:34 PM

Grumpy Penguin

Can't top TiedToATree, so I won't even try. That was a perfect dissection of a ridiculous and specious post.

I want my money to stop going to the Catholic Church. Period. The next premier-wannabe that promises to do that will likely get my vote.

May 31, 2012 @ 11:57 PM

MrFascination

TiedToATree reminds me of a 3 year old who has said his rant and is now covering his ears saying he doesn't want to hear a responce to his very erroneous statements.

June 1, 2012 @ 8:09 AM

Mississauga Phil

Not once did i say anyone else should conform to "my ways" I'm simply stating that if you come here don't expect others to bend over backwards to accomidate your ways (ie: Saying happy holidays instead of Merry Christmas). You are intentionally misunderstanding the point I was making. The church is wrong on its stance on homosexuality, and I said that right from the start, however to say that the catholic church preaches hate is wrong. At least we don't stone people in the streets for preaching a view conter to those in charge.

June 1, 2012 @ 11:12 AM

Grumpy Penguin

Phil, when even you are "misunderstanding" the point you are making, then how in the hell do you expect anyone else to follow? What in the world has this discussion to do with recent immigrants? Absolutely nothing, that's what. And TiedToATree pointed that out to you perfectly.

MrFas: can you point out even one "erroneous statement" TiedToATree made? Or is that beneath you? It's pretty damned easy to toss off a comment like yours but not quite as easy to back it up. TTAT's post was letter-perfect, IMO. Gainsaying is not an argument: if you have something to contradict then by all means do it.

June 1, 2012 @ 12:02 PM

Born Canadian

I think some people find it hard to believe that there are actually 1st, 2nd, 3rd generation Canadians who appreciate Happy Holidays over Merry Christmas.

Is this push to accomodate immigrants? Not likely. Many people new to the country that I work with go out of their way to wish me a Merry Christmas, not knowing that I am an atheist. Too bad they assume that just because I am white and am a 3rd generation Canadian that I celebrate Christmas.......

I guess that's the same as assuming that all immigrants are offended by your trees and crosses.

June 1, 2012 @ 1:09 PM

MrFascination


Grumpy Penguin - I can point out a number of errors in his post.

1- Catholics are the majority when it comes to faith... His own link proves that.

2- Canada was founded on Christian values.. Its a fact

3- The Christianity of the 19th century is still the christianity of today. Same bible, same beliefs...

4- The statement that most "Christians" would be offended by being put in the same category as "Catholics" - Shows how little he knows. The word "catholic" is used to describe "follows of Christ". As proof, the Apostles' Creed (which all christian churches accept and profess) clearly state "I believe in the holy catholic church, the communion of saints.."

5- The school is using money to oppress minority groups? Really? Name one group it oppresses? Gay & Lesbians? No actually it doesn't.. It clearly states you are to love and see the face of Christ in all. Just because you don;t agree with the way someone chooses to live their life doesn't mean you oppress or hate them.

My kids go to a Catholic school. They have had so many assemblies on the Anti-Bullying issue.. It would make you head spin... Guest speakers.. Plays... Etc... In fact my friends down the street has their children going to the public school right next to the Catholic school and they too are supprised at how much more pro-active the Catholic school has been to fighting bullying compared to their school.

The way he talks you'd think the school was teaching kids to murder people... Misapproriate funds? Give me a break...

Funny, look at the School ranking complied by the Fraser Institute - Notice Catholic school out preform public school?

Hm...

June 2, 2012 @ 7:44 AM

Ajax Mike

@MrFascination

1 - I don't think you understand how a majority works. Catholics are not more than 50% of the population, therefore they are not a majority of Ontarians. Simple, really. You don't get to move the goal posts to claim we're only talking about people of faith, since the issue affects everyone.

June 2, 2012 @ 9:37 AM

MrFascination


AjaxMike- Its Simple Math... Of All The Faiths, Catholics have the highest numbers by a long shot.

June 2, 2012 @ 11:24 AM

Grumpy Penguin

Mr Fas: I hope your kids can spell "outperform" better than you can or they're going to be ruining that bell curve at their school.

Didn't notice TTAT saying the country was not founded by Christians. What he said was the Christianity of then is not the Christianity of now. And just because you call bullshit on that doesn't make it wrong.

Protestants are "Christian". They would be tremendously offended to be called "Catholic". So there's one, for sure. I'd be reasonably certain that most of the other branches would say the same thing.

TTAT (I love how you assume it's a guy) also said Catholics are not the majority of people in Ontario. He did not say they are not the biggest faith. That is not the same thing.

So all four of your "points" are crap. Care to try again?

June 2, 2012 @ 9:50 PM

Grumpy Penguin

Addendum: I somehow missed your fifth point, Mr. Fastball. I'd rebut that one...but it's so absolutely ludicrous in the context of why this thread exists in the first place that I cannot even be bothered. If you can't figure out exactly where the Catholic School Board is using my money to fund oppression (I'll give you a huge hint: they're trying to veto the name "Gay-Straight Alliance", for starters) then I think you may be in well over your head here.

June 2, 2012 @ 9:58 PM

Ajax Mike

@MrFascination

Wow, just...Wow. There Are more Catholics than any one other faith, granted.

That. Does. Not. Mean. They. Represent. A. Majority.

They are still collectively outnumbered by everyone else. Still not sure how this works? Ask the Ontario Liberal party minority government.

June 2, 2012 @ 10:19 PM

MrFascination


Majority Doesn't Need To be 51%. Look It Up...

Catholic's And Protestant are both Christian.. Yes... But word catholic means "Christ's Church".... Again look it up.

June 4, 2012 @ 1:26 PM

Ahmed Casady

I was attending inspire church in sydney given away 10% of my earnings after I got here across an internet site http://www.bible-truths.com that expose that tithing doctrine. Jesus by no means tithe and cash was never used to tithe and only improve produce of the land was used to tithe for the priest.I then discovered that Hell was another false docrine and was use to scare the sheep into given their money. Can I sue them for this?

June 18, 2012 @ 4:00 PM

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